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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:59 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5794
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
But why would you if you want it done right. You're a perfectionist right. Don't get sloppy now.


You really got me nailed down there. :lol:

Rest assured I will get to the bottom of this and promise to report back. You guys deserve this feedback for sure. :thumbup:

Quote:
You should probably pull them, face and chase, then re-install.


Not probably, I'll have to. Can't live with it as it is, Geoff. It would be like riding the wrong tub at the wrong pressure on that damm wrong surface.... You know I want it just right.
Besides that, riding it as it is now, even with this small amount of friction would end up chewing bearings and Watts. Not my cupper.

@ bm0p700f: As Shakespeare would put it: What's in a name... Still, I see your point. For some reason Campa has been either too generous on the amount of thread locker or just the opposite. Either way, I feel it's presence may well be a source of problems more than it being a cure.
It just has too much volume . IOW it represents an open invitation for cross threading, bunching up inside the threads and so forth.
Using thread locker isn't a bad idea per definition but pre-applied it may well cause more trouble than cure.
Personally, I'm more in favour of using copper paste or similar anti-seize as it allows for sensory feedback as you screw in these cups.
Or a clean cup thread and Loctite 222 as you go method for that matter. Or just plain anti-seize....

Either way, the dry thread locker just doesn't give you a black or white message. As you screw in the cups, friction just increases in what feels like an exponentional manner. As if it were bunching up somewhere.
Not sure if that's actually the case, but still.

Bottom line is, if and where there might be a minor misalignment somewhere along the line then pre-applied thread locker is only going to make it worse. OTOH and on a more positive note, you'll also know that there actually is a problem.

As said, I'll have this frame sorted out and will report back. May take a week or two maybe a month.

In the meantime I want to thank all involved. You guys are top people. All of you and I'm proud of you. :beerchug:

........Over the top , I'll take back all the compliments........ :mrgreen:

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:59 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Chasing the threads is not likely to have any effect on the thread alignment, although it could increase the pitch diameter a little. Anyone with machining experience knows that you only get one chance to create thread aligment - when the threads are first cut into the shell. Facing insures that the threads are square to the faces, but if the two sides are misaligned, that won't change.


Last edited by DaveS on Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:01 pm 
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IIRC the Hurst coupling would not line upend in fact bind if the cups were cross threaded.

I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned seal drag.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:26 am 
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Hi,

DaveS wrote:
Chasing the threads is not likely to have any effect on the thread alignment, although it could increase the pitch diameter a little. Anyone with machining experience knows that you only get one chance to create thread aligment - when the threads are first cut into the shell. Facing insures that the threads are square to the faces, but if the two sides are misaligned, that won't change.


Chasing the threads won't effect the alignment of the threads inside the shell, chasing, when done properly is nothing more than running a cleaning tool over the threads so they're cleared of chips, debris, whatever is clogging the threaded section of the BB shell.
Chasing is not recutting the threads it's clearing them, bringing them back to shape if you like.
It will however allow the cups to be seated properly once the BB shell is faced as it should.

If and when after all that the cups still do not align and friction is still unsatisfactory high, I may consider recutting the threads. I'm well aware that this particular operation may somewhat compromise the threads' strength but frankly, they do not need to be that strong given their function here.

How else would PF cups work anyway?

BobDopolina wrote:
IIRC the Hurst coupling would not line upend in fact bind if the cups were cross threaded.

I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned seal drag.


Well, the Hirth joint can only correct for so much.
Add a copious amount of pre-dried thread locker on the cups and probably a minor amount of debris in the BB shell and you'll end up with a rather high resistive amount of forces working against you.
It would need a major misalignment for it not to align within the smallish confines of a bog standard BB shell.
It's because of the axles' ends aligning that the bearings are actually forced to sit in their cups/races at the wrong angle. Hence causing friction when something at the other end is not quite at the right angle somehow.
Be that facing of the BB shell, threads within the BB shell not being coaxial or anything within the BB shell distorting its orientation with respect to its mating cup. It does not take much with external bearings.

Regarding seal drag, first of all this is a deep grove bearing with minimal sealing to begin with. It uses a deep groove bearing so it can withstand axial loads forcing the balls to ride the ridge of the groove under lateral torsion. Under normal, radial conditions it does not even touch the seal.
Sure enough, in a distorted set up where there is a misalignment or, IOW things aren't coaxial seal drag is quite likely to increase. It's not the cause of things however, just an undesired side effect.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:20 am 
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Super Record Cult bearings have no seals.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Hi,

They do have one single seal seated over the outer side of the bearing race, the side facing the inner side of the crank arm. IIRC.

SR cups are unsealed.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Not directly relevant I know but I never bother with anti-seize or loctite, just smear the threads with small layer of grease and torque them up. Never had one come loose....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:15 pm 
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@Fdegrove, Neither the cups OR the bearings have seals on Super Record Cult cranks. There is a kind of "shroud" which fits into a groove on the crank (on the inside), which acts as a deflector of water as it drips down the crank perhaps, but that is separate from the bearing itself and is installed prior to pressing the bearing on the spindle. And it's hardly what I'd call a "seal". What you may be confusing for a seal on the bearing is just the backside of the plastic (or whatever material they use) carrier that actually houses the individual ceramic balls within the bearing races.

@Svetty, No problem using grease. Works fine. I just found that the antiseize tends to last a lot longer than grease, and in cases like bb cups which sometimes never get removed for any maintenance, ever, it can make for a much easier removal way down the road. But I've never had a problem using grease either.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:40 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
@Fdegrove, Neither the cups OR the bearings have seals on Super Record Cult cranks. There is a kind of "shroud" which fits into a groove on the crank (on the inside), which acts as a deflector of water as it drips down the crank perhaps, but that is separate from the bearing itself and is installed prior to pressing the bearing on the spindle. And it's hardly what I'd call a "seal". What you may be confusing for a seal on the bearing is just the backside of the plastic (or whatever material they use) carrier that actually houses the individual ceramic balls within the bearing races.


So, if one were to pull a CULT bearing off a SR crank then there would be no seal at all to be found either side?
The shroud you mention must be the circlip that keeps the bearing put. And what I may be confusing for a seal is actually the bearing's ball separator which is no other than a phenolic device as found on all of Campa's cup and cone bearings but just different in size ?
Same kind of amphenol (a Coca Cola kind of name for phenolic product) as you'd find inside most bearings that use ball separators?

That truly sounds adventurous, to say the least, as all of Campagnolo's wheels running CULT bearings carry at least one seal.
Invariably it will sit on the outer side of the system.
Not that they're of much use, they're as useful as a common anti-puncture belt on a tyre: a manufacturer's excuse/insurance for yet another mediocre product but that's quite another story.....

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:59 am 
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Quote:
@Fdegrove, Neither the cups OR the bearings have seals on Super Record Cult cranks. There is a kind of "shroud" which fits into a groove on the crank (on the inside), which acts as a deflector of water as it drips down the crank perhaps, but that is separate from the bearing itself and is installed prior to pressing the bearing on the spindle. And it's hardly what I'd call a "seal". What you may be confusing for a seal on the bearing is just the backside of the plastic (or whatever material they use) carrier that actually houses the individual ceramic balls within the bearing races.


So, if one were to pull a CULT bearing off a SR crank then there would be no seal at all to be found either side?
The shroud you mention must be the circlip that keeps the bearing put. And what I may be confusing for a seal is actually the bearing's ball separator which is no other than a phenolic device as found on all of Campa's cup and cone bearings but just different in size ?
Same kind of amphenol (a Coca Cola kind of name for phenolic product) as you'd find inside most bearings that use ball separators?

That truly sounds adventurous, to say the least, as all of Campagnolo's wheels running CULT bearings carry at least one seal.
Invariably it will sit on the outer side of the system.
Not that they're of much use, they're as useful as a common anti-puncture belt on a tyre: a manufacturer's excuse/insurance for yet another mediocre product but that's quite another story.....

Ciao, ;)


1. Correct... if you pull the bearing off a super record crank you will see the backside of the carrier that holds the bearings. No seal.

2. The "shroud" is not the metal circlip that prevents the right side bearing from moving inward (the circlip is found only on the right side by the way, it is not present on the left side). Let's call the "shroud" a seal, since it does prevent a certain amount of grunge from directly entering the bearing, but it is completely separate from the bearing. It fits into a little groove on the spindle between the outer bearing edge and the crank and it's soft curvy lip comes very close but does not actually touch the bearing when installed, resulting in zero friction from "seals". And no, i didn't get that last line from a romance novel.

3. Yes, what you "may be confusing for a seal is actually the bearing's ball separator which is no other than a phenolic device as found on all of Campa's cup and cone bearings but just different in size"

Now just go fix that thing and get it running properly :)

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