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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:52 am 
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I've recently built a C60 with Campagnolo Chorus 11 speed and Bora 35 clinchers. The bike rides beautifully, but the drivetrain is so noisy. I've checked derailleur hanger alignment, used campag cables and ferrules, done everything according to campag manuals and videos.
Shifting is generally good and crisp on the rear derailleur, but there is also a lot of noise from the lower pulley, especially at the extremes of the cassette.
There is no front derailleur rub - it works perfectly, but the there is a lot of noise from the inside plates of the chain rubbing on both chainrings on anything other than a perfect chainline.
Maybe I'm being too fussy but it all seems noisy - my 11 speed shimano 105 is silent in comparison.
Is there a bedding in period for Campagnolo or should I accept that it is just a bit noisier than shimano? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:52 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:17 pm 
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
I've got Record on my C60 (2015 edition). I too found the new groupo to be noisy and difficult to optimise initially (particularly shifting in the middle couple of cogs of the cassette - which is counter-intuitive!). I did a lot of research and tweaking, including the things you have stated and checking cables were running cleanly. Jury seems split as to whether Campy stuff should need a bedding down period - pro shop people say not but a lot of people stand by the 'campy wears in/shimano wears out' adage. However, my own experience is that mine has settled down considerably - both quieter/smoother and easier to trim. 2000km in i'm much happier with it now than i first was, but i don't think it will ever be as slinky quiet as Shimano - certainly my aged Ultegra set up on another bike is quieter. But it now feels like its working as it should and i would still take Campy over shimano now - the ergonomics and thumb-shifting ultrashift are much better (for me) and i love the reassuringly crisp 'thunk' of the thumb-shifting upshift especially - no doubt you've changed gear, unlike for shimano.

One thing that did come up in my research is that the C60's rear triangle is very tight indeed, and i seem to remember the BB to rear axle distance in my frame size (48s) is actually a couple of mm shorter than the minimum recommended by Campy. If so, this would have the effect of increasing the angles the chain has to travel, perhaps more than Campy intends, and so this would exacerbate any tolerance issues. Perhaps as a few rough edges have been smoothed off as it has worn in, those tolerances have improved slightly.


Last edited by DrJeffers on Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Posts: 57
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Okay, you made me check! Yes, minimum chainstay length for 2015 campy is stated as 405mm, which is only met in the C60 frame sizes 50s and above. Mine is actually 402, therefore 3mm below this. Not convinced 3mm (less than 1% of the chainstay length) would be make or break for quiet, smooth running but I'd be really interested to know whether people running Campag on a 45S frame (or 42S - but never seen one of those!) have had problems getting the groupo to work smoothly, as they have even shorter chainstay lengths (399/397mm).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Location: FIN
early Chorus/ Record / SR '15 rear derailleurs had issue with "angled" jockey cage.

Rotate backwards crank looking at lower pulley : possibly ( if that's your issue as well ) chain will jump on it instead of engaging smoothly. If I'm right, RD is to replace ( warranty issue ) . And yes- it make noise.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:43 am 
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What chain? I had been using KNC chains forever on 10 speed so I used them on 11 speed. I just switched to a Campagnolo chain the drivetrain is a lot quieter.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:39 am 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
Quote:
there is a lot of noise from the inside plates of the chain rubbing on both chainrings


So, 100% Campy?

I've always liked the almost silence of my 10 and 11-speed Campy bikes.

Hard to know what to say as I cannot compare, except that this is an unusual complaint.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:01 pm 
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
I don't think it's that unusual. I see lots of posts about Campy being noisier/grindier than Shimano and people struggling to dial it in. I'm in the happy Campy camp now (see what i did there?) but mine is still definitely not as quiet as my old (2009) 10-sp Shimano Ultegra setup. I don't mind if that's just how it is, the benefits outweigh the issues, but i'd be interested to know if others are achieving whisper-quiet, reliably-trimmed drivetrains, as it would suggest there is room for improvement for mine. If so, gawd knows how, because i've tweaked until the cows come home. And yes, mine is a full 2015 Record setup, including Record chain.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:08 am 
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There is definitely break in time with Campagnolo 2015 groups. My Record group is just as quite as my DA9000 was.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:38 am 
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Posts: 293
Location: Finland
I also agree about the break in time. Just installed some new drive train components (Record chainset, Chorus rear der., Chorus chain, Chorus cassette) to my old Cervelo S2 and it is very noisy. One reason for the initial noise may also be the short chainstays: according to Cervelo specs the rear-centre length is only 400 mm.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:18 am 
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Location: UK
Several things here from experience of building a large number of 2015 11s bikes and rectifying problems reported by customers.

The short rear triangle of the C60 is not a big problem - it barely impacts on performance or noise so long as the FD set up is spot on. We've had 2015 Chorus working quite happily on TT frames with 395 mm rear ends ...

A lot of the noise issue seems to be a result of the stiffer 4 - arm crank design supporting the outside chainring better and transmitting noise more effectively into the frame cavity. The big void (and in a C60 it's really big) then acts like a particularly effective sound box, amplifying this considerably.

The 4 arm cranks use the SC14 chainring profiles which are the same as OverTorque and OverTorque does not appear to give noise issues ... so logically it can't be a chain to chainring interface in isolation.

From my own, very direct experience, I have an old Bianchi alloy SL3 frame with Chorus 2015 11s (my own spare bike) which runs no more noisily than it did with the 2012-version system which used to be on it - wheras I have a Bianchi Oltre which was definitely noisier when built up initially with a 2015 group ... but the noise rapidly reduced with use, so after maybe 200km it was not significantly noisier than the SL3.

Having also put a few bikes together with the Shimano 4 arm cranks, I've noted the same problem there, which is part of the reason I think it's as much a crank-and-frame related problem as anything.

Shift issues around the middle of the cassette are typically about H screw setting if everything else (including locking ring torque on the cassette) is correctly set. On 2015 groups, s little time spent balancing the H and B screw settings against each other plays handsome dividends, the object being to get the top jockey to track the profile of the cassette as accurately as possible. The more "free" chain there is from the point of release by the sprocket to the point of pick-up by the jockey wheel, the flaker the shifting will be. C60s are particularly troublesome because of the design of the rear dropout and we have even seen cases recently where we have had to change the H Screw drive ratchet to get acceptable performance.

The twist on the RD cage has not changed since 2009 - we have seen one or two RDs where the cage does not appear to sit correctly on the lower knuckle, though. It's not clear what causes this and in these cases we have swapped the RD under warranty. We are awaiting the results of full analysis in the factory for the cause of this problem.

On a very, very small number of RDs, we have seen the lower jockey fitted back to front from the factory and some end users are not aware that it is directional and so sometimes mis-assemble it if dropping the jockeys out to clean them ... so in a noisy transmission this is always worth a check.

The latest KMC 11s chains, which we don't recommend in any case, have been changed to optimise to some extent for thick-thin rings and 1 x systems, leading to a performance still further away from that of the dedicated Campagnolo chain. Again, we have noted an increase in meshing / de-meshing noise on both Shimano and Campagnolo systems with these chains.

HTH

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:41 am 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
DrJeffers wrote:
I don't think it's that unusual. I see lots of posts about Campy being noisier/grindier than Shimano and people struggling to dial it in. I'm in the happy Campy camp now (see what i did there?) but mine is still definitely not as quiet as my old (2009) 10-sp Shimano Ultegra setup. I don't mind if that's just how it is, the benefits outweigh the issues, but i'd be interested to know if others are achieving whisper-quiet, reliably-trimmed drivetrains, as it would suggest there is room for improvement for mine. If so, gawd knows how, because i've tweaked until the cows come home. And yes, mine is a full 2015 Record setup, including Record chain.


I don't see "lots" of posts about Campy being noisier than the other brands.

Check RD hanger alignment.

Did you include that in the tweaking?

I would opine that 100% of this kind of complaint, regardless of manufacturer, is related to setup.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:15 am 
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Location: SYD
I've had 3 bad brand new Chorus rear mechs its a known problem. too much twist on the inside cage. there must be a bad batch. take it too a campag pro and get it looked at.. the drama lies in the bottom jockey not tracking right. best case it 'clatters' in the lower gears, worst case it jumps the chain off the lower wheel. if every thing else is good its my bet..

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:21 pm
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Many thanks Graeme for the very detailed and informative views, as always! Really helpful, and i'm glad I can lay to rest my concerns that the C60 chainstay length is a contributing factor. I had read in a couple of places that the C60 frame functions as a very effective sound box, so that's something to factor, definitely.

I'll check my jockey wheels are the correct way round as i've had mine out once or twice for cleaning. I'll also check cassette torque, FD positioning and H screw stuff again...

Bikerjulio - yes, hanger alignment is pretty much the first thing i checked, using the Park tool, and a couple of times since.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:59 pm 
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As for noise... when I set a new system up, I usually do so with a new chain that I've stripped as much of the packing grease off as possible so that I can hear every little metal to metal contact and really try to dial in the adjustment. After that I use Duomonde Tech Lite on the chain, and it really does basically leave a waxy film on the chain after about 3 applications that renders my drive train completely silent, in any gear combination, crossed or otherwise. So I don't know, if you're sure everything is adjusted perfectly, and it still seems noisy to you, then maybe try a different lube like Duomonde Tech. I just clean it with soapy water after that and brush it and rinse. I never remove the chain or use degreaser on it until it's worn out, unless I need to change gearing that a different length chain is required for, but this would only happen in the event I'm changing from a 34/50 to standard 39/53 or vice versa.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:18 pm 
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graeme_f_k wrote:
Several things here from experience of building a large number of 2015 11s bikes and rectifying problems reported by customers.

...The more "free" chain there is from the point of release by the sprocket to the point of pick-up by the jockey wheel, the flaker the shifting will be. C60s are particularly troublesome because of the design of the rear dropout and we have even seen cases recently where we have had to change the H Screw drive ratchet to get acceptable performance.


Graeme: would you mind elaborating a bit on the specifics of the rear dropout design on the C60 that you think causes some issues. And how has that changed from say, the C59? Colnagos do stretch the Campy derailleur specs to the max for sure, and I've taken great pains to measure this against the specs on the C59 at least. For instance, the length from the axle center to the derailleur hanger center is pretty much right on 28mm, the max specified by Campy. And when it as that max, Campy manuals state that it is normal to not be able to get the jockey wheel closer than 7mm to the sprocket in the case of an 11/23 cassette for example. And it's probably quite rearward to, but as far as I could tell, still within spec. What this does is make for nice easy rear wheels changes, but I did have some trouble sometimes getting the jockey wheel as close to the sprockets as I would like. So if that is the case I remove the cage and reinsert the tension spring in the hole (there are three) that provides the most tension. But even with that, I've had to pretty much use all the adjustment in the screw to get it at the 5-7mm range. Is that what you are referring to when you say you've had to "change the H Screw drive ratchet to get acceptable performance"? Thanks.

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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:18 pm 


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