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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1845
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Doesn't Merida make the top Specialized frames - not Dengfu?

My point is Dengfu would have learnt how to make CF frames from working with western customers, then they set about designing something without a lot of creative difference, and without the development effort put in.
Still a good bike- but not likely to be as good due to economic and time pressures.

Their new TT bike looks pretty cool though....


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:26 pm
Posts: 251
Location: Norway
I have fallen in love with their new time trial frame. I haven't got the budget for the super frames from Spec, BMC and so on. Why not this? Might not be as aero, but looks just as good in my opinion.


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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:55 am 


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Posts: 1653
Location: New York City
Phill P wrote:
Doesn't Merida make the top Specialized frames - not Dengfu?


deng or hung make nothing. they are just middle men. factory will not sell you just 1 frame directly. it is why you see a lot of group buys from the velobuild forums.

since everybody agrees, that these chinese oem knockoff's are getting better and better. so what can everyone agree/assume is the level of technology and overall build quality of these bikes? how close are they to the manufacturing techniques employed by the name brand companies? what name brand bikes use to be 1, 2, 3 or 5 years ago? and how close to the point of demising returns are we talking about here? how much R&D and testing went into a rue, or a crumpton, etc when they first started out or even now... how many bikes were tested to the point of break, how much design and technology, machinery, do these bikes have? dont get me wrong, i like crumpton's (except for the ones with bolted dropouts - for the money, i want full carbon, even if it made 0 difference). how many of these guys have a background in composite materials or eng.? appleman, spin, AX, dont really know of others. yet we do not question the build qualities of these bikes, we put them above the name brand bikes most of the time.

i have to agree i got a bit carried away with some things, but at the end of the day, these oem bikes, are probably 95% as good as the name brand bikes. we will have people that would like to fight that, for various reason; they bought an expensive bike or they have a stake in it. but a poster made a good analogy with Hyundai and kia cars. they just kept getting better and better to the point that they rival the top manufactures.

some of these bikes arent that cheap, if you buy an fm066 which is suppose to be 850g for a size 56 (same geometry as a caad10), it will cost $780 ($580 group buy price). that is their superlite model made out of t800 and t1000 toray fiber. but still a great deal for what you get. how many oem bikes are out there? how many people have heard of catastrophic failure with these bikes? i hear about a lot of satisfied customers. i would assume that a failure would get posted very quickly with a "warning do not buy from such and such chinese oem, my frame broke 5 miles from home". we dont really see or hear that, and it would spread like wildfires in the interweb.

subtle changes, but i think it looks good. if they dropped the alu BB for a full carbon, they could drop 30g (felt said they lost as much by doing so).
Image

Image

Image

Image


Leviathan wrote:
strobbekoen wrote:

So I'd guess those knockoffs or cheaper versions are made in factories started by ex-workers for brandname manufacturers who decided they could start their own companies with the knowledge they got ?
I could be wrong, just seems more logical. It happens all the time..


Indeed. But isnt that how many of the "boutique" brands started in Europe and the US, a few key employees escaping from BigCo? Where did Dario Pegoretti learn to weld?

The real plus of buying a brand is its accountability, and hence lower risk. Better QC. Possibly a year or so competitive advantage on a "feature", which often is percieved as nothing more than marketing, before the no names copy it- examples include Dimples, Aero road bikes, ISPs, for gods sake? There is an issue when people start saying "its like comparing Gordon Ramsay to cooking it yourself" as youre trying to mystify a process which, fundamentally, doesnt have an awful lot of firm specific assets.


i just had to repost - to give props to this mallorquino. we should have a like button...lol btw, i dont like Jorge Lorenzo.

esta muy bien escrito!!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:55 pm
Posts: 8
spytech wrote:
copying others design/technology is something that the china has done for 1000's of years.


While the general gist of your statement is correct, you may want to brush up on your history and see what the Chinese civilization was up to while your and my forefathers were barely learning to wipe their asses.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm
Posts: 720
I have an MC053, Scott Foil open mold. There are a few differences from the actual frame, but pretty close. I came from a CDale supersix, the MC053 is plenty stiff. I haven't snapped the frame yet, and overall I'm impressed with the quality and ride. The rear is a bit looser than my Supersix, but I feel that is because I'm riding a pretty big offset seat post now compared to a zero post previously, which I can feel is putting more leverage/torque on the post/seat mast as I pedal. The rear flex seems entirely at the seatpost down to the clamp system. I weigh about 170lbs, so that adds to some flex. But up out of the saddle, I don't feel anymore/less flex than my Supersix had.

I'm personally waiting for a FM098 to arrive now. I think the geometry is going to fit me a little better and I'm going back to a slightly larger frame. Besides the first few batches of FM098 that had some seatpost/clamp tolerance issues about 3-4 months ago, they seemed to have rectified any little quirks at the factory. Nobody has made any complaints about the FM098 in the last group buy.

The only real issue you have to worry about is them actually shipping you everything that was ordered. People often get shorted items, sent wrong accessories etc...I had it happen with Miracle trade and had to threaten a PP dispute, then they suddenly refunded the difference of extra items I was missing. Fortunately, it wasn't anything that stopped me from building the bike, just an extra RD and headsets. They sent me the wrong headsets entirely. I found a Ritchey drop in tapered that works perfect, and along with my stem/bars, it makes a great cockpit, so I'm glad they screwed that one up actually.

Also, just like most bikes that are second hand bought, the original warranty is about useless if something goes wrong. Basically the frame will be a write off. But that is true buying used frames of any brand, which my Supersix was not a retail purchase, although brand new, so I had no warranty with that, never had an issue for the year I had it and not concerned. If you can't afford a frame to be trashed or crashed, you should get a cheaper bike, or find another sport IMO.

Anyway, velobuild and roadbikereview are better forums for this discussion, plenty of information, group buys etc..over there.

I see many of the same people posting here in this thread that have a Chinese open mold frame, and the other forums. Probably better left to discuss this over there and leave this forum dedicated to weight weenies.

Of course, your propaganda is always welcome in a thread for/against these frames, that is always entertaining!


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Formerly known as PezTech
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 5700
Location: Phoenix Arizona
We keep implying that open mold means the same care and quality of materials is used to stuff the mold...

There's a reason the R5CA is a lot more money than the base r5...

There's a reason the Top Mclaren Venge was 3 times the cost of the standard...


The quality of raw materials and the car in lay up make for massive cost differences in production for the actual reputable brands even in the same mold.


We're also ignoring the fact that molds degrade and get out of spec... Once that happens, the molds for a brand occasionally become "open"...


Visual similarity is creating a facade of quality and brand association way beyond what the reality is...

The busted chinarellos lined with newspaper were a great example...

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:22 pm
Posts: 40
Location: France
Phill P wrote:
Doesn't Merida make the top Specialized frames - not Dengfu?

My point is Dengfu would have learnt how to make CF frames from working with western customers, then they set about designing something without a lot of creative difference, and without the development effort put in.
Still a good bike- but not likely to be as good due to economic and time pressures.

Their new TT bike looks pretty cool though....


Hello,
I'm not really agree with the fact that China's production is less good qualities, unoriginal .... yes, but the quality is there, for other frames waiver, Chinese managers that I had the hands are not ashamed of their finish, quite the contrary. I also want to put my last achievement just a FM098 ISP.
Attachment:
FM098 002.jpg
FM098 002.jpg [ 152.62 KiB | Viewed 2736 times ]

@+Xavier


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:01 am
Posts: 49
This is not a Venge this is a FM098 with some stickers on it to make it look like a Venge. Some guys thought it was a Venge at my local race and i swiftly told them nope just a Chinese knock off. Its comfortable it does everything well and it carried me to a victory in that same race.

Image

While Chinese frames might be Taboo for the price that i payed and for what it does its perfectly fine with me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:31 am
Posts: 244
It seems like some sort of anti-dumping tariff on carbon bikes/wheels may be not too far off with stuff like this going on.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:32 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm
Posts: 3137
Leviathan wrote:
There is an issue when people start saying "its like comparing Gordon Ramsay to cooking it yourself" as youre trying to mystify a process which, fundamentally, doesnt have an awful lot of firm specific assets.


How does that mystify it? Cooking is relatively easy. So is frame building. It is to do with expectations. There are some great bargains out there, and I, more than anyone hate the notion that Chinese OEM frames aree in any way worse than anything else. I have seen pretty much broken frames from all manufacturers! The big ones are easier to get a warranty claim processed with. Also, what about recalls?

My question would be more, how do you all feel about IP theft?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:33 pm 
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in the industry

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Posts: 3137
Chadwick890 wrote:
This is not a Venge this is a FM098 with some stickers on it to make it look like a Venge. Some guys thought it was a Venge at my local race and i swiftly told them nope just a Chinese knock off. Its comfortable it does everything well and it carried me to a victory in that same race.

Image

While Chinese frames might be Taboo for the price that i payed and for what it does its perfectly fine with me.


It disgusts me to see the Specialized trademarks on this. Take them off and ride it with pride.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:01 am
Posts: 49
RTW wrote:
Chadwick890 wrote:
This is not a Venge this is a FM098 with some stickers on it to make it look like a Venge. Some guys thought it was a Venge at my local race and i swiftly told them nope just a Chinese knock off. Its comfortable it does everything well and it carried me to a victory in that same race.

Image

While Chinese frames might be Taboo for the price that i payed and for what it does its perfectly fine with me.


It disgusts me to see the Specialized trademarks on this. Take them off and ride it with pride.


I do ride it with pride regardless of what sticker is on it. If it disgust you its not my issue. But please do start a flame war cause i can see it coming from that 1 picture.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:59 pm 
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It was a look alike, and you've made a counterfeit out of it. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 381
CharlesM wrote:
The busted chinarellos lined with newspaper were a great example...


Pez, you keep on talking about the busted chinarello with the newspaper. I also saw pictures of that bike. BUT it was 1 frame. Unless you know of multiple instances of this happening? If so then please post some links because I sure haven't seen many to warrant concern.
Generally the people that buy these frames are internet savvy and have used/searched forums a fair degree before purchasing. I've heard of very few failures and I think if there were more failures then we would have heard about them on roadbikereview, bikeradar etc.

These things are what they are. Chinese carbon frames that are going to be fine for 99% of the people out there.


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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Posts: 381
Also we're all assuming that the quality isn't as good. How do we know that for sure? Has anyone been to a factory that can verify this? Otherwise its all just speculation.


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