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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Posts: 181
This thread is an absolute waste of time. Nothing good will come of it. Chinese bikes are here to stay. Those knock-offs over time will evolve to be their own unique designs. Nobody has an orignal design, everybody copies or is inspired by someone else.

I think the Prada's is correct!
http://www.businessinsider.com/prada-ce ... ods-2012-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look at Kia and Hyundai, at one point they were 2nd rate cars, now they're competing at the top level of middle-class cars.


If you don't like these bike, go buy a branded bike and just ride!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:57 pm 
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CharlesM wrote:
Out of respect for the thread that these originated from, I have split these posts out and popped them in a new thread. Where we can all discuss the merits (or possibly lack thereof, depending on your POV) on the Chinese 'knock off' frames.

Cheers,

TP



I wish I could get behind the no badge, no background stuff...

But I cant help but thenk I would be a "dengfool" for riding one after looking at busted out frames lined with old news print and made from carbon that sat out too long to use for a name brand part...

Not saying that's the case here, but I just don't know what I don't know and I want a little confidence when the only thing between my skin and the street at 50 mph are parts that nobody knows anything at all about except that they're 80% cheaper than dependable brands...




Title of this thread is really not cool. Not at all. You ARE or were affiliated with this site. Correct? You know what I mean. Wu Tang? There is no such frame, manufacturer, or other company making bikes that go by the name Wu Tang. Got any more Chinese stereotypes?


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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
If Wu-Tang made frames, I'd buy them.
I mean, that head badge alone would guarantee dominance.

Seriously, the thread title is a bit questionable.

And I think we've discussed these things ad nausea here already, no?
Why yet another thread?
Because someone posts a built using an open-mould frame, and that irritates a few members here who have comparatively larger budgets, price-connections to the industry, and specialize in building the ultra-bling?

I ride a non-brand name frame - not quite "open mould" but similar in that it isn't well known - and it's been great for ten's of thousands of kms, climbs, sprinting, whatever, with no problems at all. Thousands of other people are riding out there, every single day, on open-mould frames... yet their rates of failure are similar to any other brands rate of failure.

Why all the hate?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:05 pm 
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elviento wrote:
....he uttered a long sigh of helplessness, "in this business, ya just have to deal with people copying your design. Not a portion of it, but all of it. Your design is not even good for a year." He had this look of disgust in his eyes. It's things like this that make a lot of designers like him want to quit.

So let's forget about big brands price tags for a moment. Just think of the designers who spent many late nights trying to come up with something functional, cool and clever. And then some one just takes it in two seconds.

In my mind, that's not cool.

BTW, Dengfu had more generic designs but those don't really sell well.


Do the frames bear a resemblance, yes; however, the people that are buying these "knock-offs" aren't the same people that are in the market for a (insert high-end knocked-off bike frame here). The arguement that somehow this diminishes the market for high-end bikes is silly and frankly doesn't hold water. This isn't music piracy or the like where intellectual property is being sold and the market is undermind. These frames look similar....they are no tthe same and they do not perform the same so really the arguement is totally moot.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:08 pm 
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bones wrote:
Title of this thread is really not cool. Not at all. You ARE or were affiliated with this site. Correct? You know what I mean. Wu Tang? There is no such frame, manufacturer, or other company making bikes that go by the name Wu Tang. Got any more Chinese stereotypes?


Untwist your panties mate..... :smartass:

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Here is your Wu Tang head badge... print it out and slap it on... open source, baby.

Image

By the way, loving my cheap China frame. Dengfu FM028. Must have ~15K miles on it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Didn't specialized started their stumpjumper by ripping off tom ritchey, people seem to forget this, go sell your specialized asap!

People buy what they want, if you want to pay big bucks for a big name, do it. Who really cares?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:38 pm 
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A lot of TT bikes look like rip-offs of Walser's original design from a few years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:29 pm 
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So...this actually came from my thread earlier and I'd just about posted a long response just to clarify some of the differences between pricing/quality that I've learned about while researching my latest build. I didn't post it because I wanted to keep true to my word and separate "Chinese vs name brand" and keep my thread on-topic so I'll post my response now (and I'm guessing it clear up things for a few people):

First off, Chinese carbon products are not equal to the high-end name brand parts. If someone tells you otherwise they're probably lying. There are two reasons for this; technology that goes into developing the parts and quality of the carbon used (there are likely other things such as expertise of the frame builder, accuracy of the machinery...but those could honestly go either way)

For the technology I'll refer to my FM098 (Venge copy) as an example but it encompasses nearly all Chinese carbon products (at least for cycling). I've seen both bikes an hour apart (I had to grab a shifter clamp as I lost one of mine) and there are some very noticeable differences:

First, the Venge is lighter and stiffer (100-150g lighter...I haven't ridden one but I've heard they're a little stiffer). That is because the FM098 is built up with Toray 800T carbon. I'm not sure what the Venge is made from but it is probably toray 1000T quality or better (the "high-end" chinese carbon frames are 1000T). This doesn't necessarily mean the Venge is safer...only that it requires fewer layers of carbon (less weight) to make the frame as stiff as they want it.

Secondly, the tubing looks similar, but is definitely not coming from the same frame or mold. Maybe the FM098 is made from a prototype mold or something but there are some very noticeable differences. The top tube is wider on the venge, the downtube has a better shape to it for use with bottles, the headset is drastically different, the internal cable routing is flipped (RD on the left side and FD on the right for the Venge). If I had the nerve to bring my bike in and compare it side-by-side to a Venge (I think it would be very disrespectful to do that to an LBS who sells 80% specialized bikes) then I'm sure I could point out more differences but I will only experience that if I cross paths with a Venge owner who wants to compare bikes.

All of differences above result in the Venge being lighter and faster. Sure, the FM098 looks similar and certainly is aerodynamic on it's own but I have no doubt that every inch of the Venge was optimized to be as aerodynamic as possible while keeping the weight to a minimum...Similarly, the carbon quality and layup techniques are going to be better as well. The FM098 on the other hand, was probably developed with general look of the Venge in mind and they tried to make something similar but without all the extra work, testing and money to reduce every last gram of drag/weight out of the bike.

I'm definitely not bashing on Chinese carbon (I love mine) but you get what you pay for. My "new" bike is probably 2 years behind in cycling technology even though the FM098 frame is relatively new (released 6 months ago?). I certainly got a cheap bike but it rides far better than anything else I could get in the same price range but if something goes wrong, I have to deal with $80 shipping each way and waiting weeks to get it replaced (and warranty is only 2 years). It will be a very frustrating month if that ever happens.

There are a lot of hidden costs that you pay for in a name brand bike and there are certainly people who feel that those costs are worth it but there will be people who don't feel that such costs are worth it. The safety of these bikes should not be questioned. Many of these frames are run through stress testing (which is why I ended up buying from Dengfu) and have been certified under the same safety standards that name brand bikes must adhere to.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:04 am 
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Good post.

The thing that gets me about the copies, any copies, done by any brand, Chinese, American, Japanese, European or from where ever, is that they devalue the product they are copying. If you bring a new concept to the market, but people decide that they aren't prepared to pay the premium associated with innovation, so purchase a copy instead, that may not work as well (if there is no research done, it probably won't) and the danger is that this poisons the concept for the user. They decide that the concept was wrong, not that the example they tried is a poorly executed copy. This is bad for innovation which is bad for the consumer.

On the subject of 'you are just paying for the brand'. No, you aren't. A small amount of what you are paying pays for the brand. A lot of it pays for support, local market support, R&D, the products which didn't make it to market, and the rest of the things that we, as brands, do.

The point often made, is who cares? It is all made in the same factory. Usually that's a lie, bandied around on forums by people who know little better. Those which are (and some are, but actually in the carbon factories producing the top end bikes, capacity is an issue, so they are unlikely to be knocking out cheap copies, when they can make far more working with the larger brands producing the quantity) actually are unlikely to be produced to the same standards, using the same materials as the branded stuff. The way I have put it before is this:

If you had a choice between me going to a local shop, buying eggs, ham, cream, cheese, and cooking you an omelette, or Gorden Ramsey arriving with the ingredients, then cooking in your kitchen at home, who would you chose?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:19 am 
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rruff wrote:
By the way, loving my cheap China frame. Dengfu FM028. Must have ~15K miles on it.

Have to say Ron, the fact that you have one certainly adds more 'street cred' to them, for my own personal point of view.


bones, was tongue in cheek and designed for a little giggle. I'm also a big Wu-Tang fan. Please don't try and make more of it, as there's actually nothing more to it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:41 am 
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bones wrote:
CharlesM wrote:
Out of respect for the thread that these originated from, I have split these posts out and popped them in a new thread. Where we can all discuss the merits (or possibly lack thereof, depending on your POV) on the Chinese 'knock off' frames.

Cheers,

TP



I wish I could get behind the no badge, no background stuff...

But I cant help but thenk I would be a "dengfool" for riding one after looking at busted out frames lined with old news print and made from carbon that sat out too long to use for a name brand part...

Not saying that's the case here, but I just don't know what I don't know and I want a little confidence when the only thing between my skin and the street at 50 mph are parts that nobody knows anything at all about except that they're 80% cheaper than dependable brands...




Title of this thread is really not cool. Not at all. You ARE or were affiliated with this site. Correct? You know what I mean. Wu Tang? There is no such frame, manufacturer, or other company making bikes that go by the name Wu Tang. Got any more Chinese stereotypes?





Pay attenion...

I didnt start this thread. Didnt create the title...

That was a moderator (who's actually had issues with unbranded frames...) who simply cut off the other thread and started this one using my post from that other thread...

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:47 am 
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I have?

I don't seem to recall...?


But yes, the thread title (which should quite obvious) was mine.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:56 am 
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RTW wrote:
If you had a choice between me going to a local shop, buying eggs, ham, cream, cheese, and cooking you an omelette, or Gorden Ramsey arriving with the ingredients, then cooking in your kitchen at home, who would you chose?


I dunno, can you cook? Have other people eaten your food and done well? If they've been happy with your cooking, and the price is right, it may be worth it. I mean, consider:
Gorden can be a bit of a pompous arse and a pain to deal with. Sure the meal would be nice, but it all comes out as shit in the end, and is it worth some arrogant bloke come in with all his camera crew, yell at people, curse, wake the roosters up, and eventually get around to cooking me an omlete? Or can I just eat the omelette you made me and go for a ride instead?

(... and that's all in keeping with your analogy)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:08 am 
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spytech wrote:
Tinea Pedis wrote:
spytech - I'm sure you've read the thread, so realise there's a little more to that 'failure' than simply the good old exploding carbon.

But I see what you're saying, failures happy across all brands - big or small.



lets forget about what happened to that frame for a second. if you have two bikes from different brands and/or oem, built by the same people what is the difference? are they intentionally building an inferior product? your buying straight from the factory (almost denfu is a middle man) so the savings are there. you no longer have to pay for support or branding, bike shop profit, etc. so if you cut all that out, what do you have? a $450 fm098 of decent quality. you could by 4 or 5 of these bikes for the price of a single specialized; so there is your crash replacements.

by the way, we do not know what exactly happened to that frame in the picture. all we have is speculation and snapped chain and seat stays. if this had happened to a chinese frame woohoo, field day for people like pez. it would no longer be user error, no speculation needed... we would have reply's like " your a damnfu for buying a dengfu you fool". or something like that. you get the message. i think we need to stop being hypocrites and not apply double standards to same thing.

btw, i was all for paying more money for an iphone that is manufactured in good ole USA. but in realty manufacturing in china allows apple to employ much more people here in USA then if they were making the phone in the states.

i have a lot of respect for mario cipollini and his bikes, making the bikes in italy and calling out the companies that say that they are made in italy but are made in china. btw, in the giro, a cipollini bike broke. so yes, anything can break.

Dengfu is not a middle man. They have their own factory. That's their claim and it's supported by a vid on BR. I assume they produce their own designs but that's a guess. The fact that the same frame models appear to be manufactured by others could be explained by the mould maker or Dengfu selling duplicates to different factories to defray the cost. I note that the FM028 from Miracle Trade is 100 g heavier than the "identical" model from Dengfu. To me that implies a different layup in the same mould not all out of the same factory.

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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:08 am 


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