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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:58 pm
Posts: 27
Hey mavic zack if u are listening.
Why dont mavic just release cosmic carbone sle in 40

Sorry to say, i and many many many people world wide dont trust carbon clinchers..period no matter what steel u put in them.
Madfiber cclinchers are not doin dat well either..lotsa tires blowing up.

Stick with exalith and make things lighter or just make more tubulars. Dont waste your time on things that madfiber cant sell.


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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Posts: 1189
Location: UK
clxcolnago, I think you're exaggerating a little bit!

The tyres blowing off the Mad Fibers don't seem to be heat related. It's a similar issue to the Stans aluminium rims where some tyres blow off the rims. Seems to be a tolerance issue.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Hey everyone - I am sorry for the delay (as always) in responding on this thread. As you can imagine it's been pretty busy, but lots of interest in the wheels, so that's good.

Before I forget - We're doing LIMITED test ride and info presentation at Sea Otter. If any of you WW-ers would like to join, you can ride one of the first 5 pairs to arrive in the USA. Since I only have 5 pair, you have to RSVP with me via PM. But I'm already trying to get a few WW guys there, like Coloclimber and prendrefeu.

I have not seen all the comments but I can address what's been a recurring theme: what's so special about 40mm carbon clinchers, with weight per pair over 1500g? And, why bother to use carbon at all, going to all the effort when alu is ususally better?

We would address that by emphasizing the following points, which in total contribute to wheels which are not just cosmetic but actually bring some really nice ride characteristics.

- Mavic took great pains to quantify braking performance, and if you take a chance to ride the wheels, you'll note that dry braking is exceptional and doesn't fade. Wet braking is like no other carbon clincher - it's revolutionary. I don't know how they did it precisely, but when you feel the sidewall you will feel a surface that's unlike most others. Coarse, raw, like that.

- wheel weight per pair is not heavy, in fact when you measure competitors with the rim strips that they're required to use, the weight of 1550g is actually in line with wheels in category. It's below Reynolds and only 20g over 303.

- taken alone, the rim weight is below that of competitors, who are typically measured without the rim strip (which is required!). So with lower rim weight, Mavic has made a wheel with the characteristic "Mavic ride feel": stiff, rapid acceleration and low inertia.

- lateral stiffness on the bench test is better than competitors, and has been tuned for minimal movement at 180 degrees (brake pads). In fact by this measure the CC40 is better than almost all competitors.

- aerodynamics are good - better than CC SL/SLE/SLR. Almost as good as 303. 303 measures lower drag at 10 deg, but more after 13 deg. So the CC40 will be more predictable handling with less variation in drag across a full yaw sweep.

- the carbon wrapped up the sidewalls of the aluminum tire bed is 100% structural. The tire bed insert is too thin on its own to support tire pressure and impact resistance.

- The advantage of the aluminum insert is precise tire fitment. No chance of the Stan's or MF tire blow-off that is relatively well documented. In fact, Mavic has taken GREAT pains to respect the ETRTO standards for tire bead dimension and fitment. Both for rims AND for tires, too. Imprecise tire-rim tolerance, especially on the tire side, is responsible for more failures than you would even imagine.... Hence, the WTS "MAVIC tires included" program that Mavic is adament about. It's one more measure of tested, proven, known and trusted performance and QC by the rigorous lab and field protocols in Annecy.

- You're right if you say that carbon and aluminum have much different rates of thermal expansion. I do not know the precise nature of the bond between these two materials in the CC40, but I'm told it is chemical and in fact it grows stronger over time.

- regarding the width, it's clear that wide rims improve aerodyanamics but that wasn't the #1 goal with CC40. Good all around performance and handling was the key, and the width is in line to deliver that. Perhaps in the future, different widths can be explored but for now proving the durability and maintaining the brake performance were paramount.

I think the take-home on Mavic's side would be this: if you're looking for a carbon clincher, for whatever reason, you should consider safety and reliability first. Then, look for exceptional ride characteristics: braking, accelerating, stiffness. That's what the company did, and we think if you ride the wheels you'll actually notice the effort that was made.

Again, please hit me with a PM if you want to check out the wheels at Sea Otter. We can schedule a personal visit with the PM from France and also a test ride.

Thanks for reading, and .... well I guess now you can get on with tearing me a new one! It's no prob, I'm getting used to it .. :-)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Zack; I think it takes guts to join this forum and stick with your product, believe in it and defend it. Respect!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:56 pm 
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Posts: 655
Hi Zack,

is mavic ready to provide a white paper with full documented results/protocol used. interested in aero vs zipp/enve/reynolds.

will the new swisstop black prince pad work better than the yellow ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Posts: 82
Location: Boulder, CO
Cheers for that!

I'll be in therapy for years as a result of this particular occupational hazard... :D

but hey at the end of the day it's all bicycles and riding bikes, and talking about bikes, and thinking about bikes ...
at the end of the day, what could be better, no matter what flavor you choose?
-zack

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
Fair play to you coming on here Zack.

A question on weight as this is WWs! Will Mavic stand behind the claimed weight give or take a small percentage.

In other words, can you guarantee us that all sets of these wheels will be (say) no more than 102% of claimed weight?

Wld be nice to see manufacturers backing their claims up on weight more.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Location: Boulder, CO
Spartan,
I've not been given a white paper with full details. Regarding weights, I have a chart in an interactive PDF and I don't know how to copy-paste it here. but I will work on building out the relevent points into something I can use here.
For aero, it would be testing at the Geneva wind tunnel. Typical protocol (eg CXR 80) is wheels in a bike but in this case I don't know. Again I have a chart in a PDF but would have to some leg work to get it usable for here.
regarding brakes, swiss yellow is all I know and they work great. anything else, up to the user/no guarantees.
thx!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Location: Boulder, CO
You know, regarding weights that's a great question. I will ask about % allowed variance.

I can tell you in the aluminum wheels it's about 3-5%, which for 1500g pair of wheels can make 75g! it sounds like a lot, and it is, but if you think about 3-5% on each part (hub, rim, spokes, axle) stacking up through a build, it's just a few g here and there but it all adds up fast. For example, on the aluminum extrusions how sharp are the tools (how much material is cut away).
So you have wheels made with fresh tools that are bang on catalogue weight, and then at the end of the tool's life cycle, wheels which are pushing the upper end of 5% more than quoted.

anyway for these, I will have to ask what the allowed variance is. I reckon it will be quite a bit less as it's actually easier to manage precise amt and placement of carbon fiber.
- speaking of, that's the reason for the foam core. super tight tolerance for the inner wall of the carbon fiber rim allows less material used. Plus, absolute precise locating of spoke insertions and tire bed insert.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:45 am
Posts: 205
Hi Zack

Thanks for your responses to the many interesting comments and viewpoints that have been raised so far.

I quite like the look of the wheels and will be interested in test riding a pair in the UK at some future point in time.

I do think that Mavic have missed the boat a little in that a clincher version of the CCU was the big wheel that was missing from their arsenal - an equivalent to Lightweight's Standard III C if you like.

The clincher 40C rim with the spokes and hubs from the CCU, or even the Cosmic SR, at the price point that the 40C wheel is being pitched would have had me reaching for the credit card without hesitation.

This being WeightWeenies, however, any such purchase would still have been dependent on an accurate weight as my Cosmic SRs, which have a claimed weight of 1595 in all Mavic promotional material, actually came in at 1716 grammes.

Nevertheless, I look forward to reviewing the various test reports on the 40C in the coming weeks

Andy


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:05 pm 
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sawyer, you know we get along, so you'll also appreciate that the bashing Mavic cops on WW (for a lot of unfounded reasons) really is excessive. And for whatever reason, always has been.


Zack, cheers for the input. We appreciate it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Location: Triange, NC
Hello Zack, and your comments have answered some questions. My comment is that you should not be asking, "what is the allowable tolerance", and instead you should be specifying Mavic's tolerance on this wheel set. If your engineering department has exercised diligence and done their work, then they should specify a weight tolerance. Or, as an alternative you should specify the worse case wheel set weight.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:37 am
Posts: 187
Thanks for clearing some of these points up Zack. These forums tend to be steered off in all sorts of directions at times, often by people who can't tell a cartridge bearing from cups and cones.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 997
Gary mine are fine too. Happy to ride Mavic. In Europe they are so much better value than the likes of Enve and Zipp.


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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:09 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:58 pm
Posts: 27
Zack, i ride sle
U ask mavic make sle in 40
I will buy
I live in asia, road conditions suck. My sle is still rock hard until now.
Tubulars and carbon clinchers here in my country road? Prepare to cry n watch ur wheel get destroyed

Carbon clinchers.....too late mann


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