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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:16 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

mattydubs wrote:
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Quote:
Where are you racing that it's this cold? Granted, it's a wonderful image, but I don't know if that's the only concern one should have.



Not Geoff but just imagine a cyclo-cross race during the winter season in Canada or Belgium or wherever temperatures drop to well below minus 10 degrees Celcius. Add humidity, gloves getting wet and so forth and I'm sure you can see the picture.

It's not just your fingers freezing, in extreme cases it will also be your eyes, your toes. IOW all of the body's venal extremities.

Cycling is an extreme sport, boxing is for wussies.... (just kidding about boxing, it is ranked, together with cycling, as a very tough expression of sports).

Ciao, ;)


Considering this question was posted to the "road" vs the "cx/touring" forum I arrogantly assumed that cx was not the OPs intended application. Silly me.


Those circumstances, even though they seem rather extreme, are not limited to cyclo-cross alone.
Either way, I assume Geoff speaks from personal experience and the only reason I defend his view is that I concur.
The cyclo-cross part is my example of how extreme cycling can get but it can happen on road races just the same only less frequently so.

Point taken though. 8)

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 757
Location: Perth, Western Australia
All the top group sets work well, and are pretty durable, I still have Shimano DA7700 and DA 7800 on 2 older bikes and other than weight, they work and shift just as well as newer groups, just slightly different feel, DA 7900 wasn't fantastic IMO, but the new DA 9000 is really good, shifts like a dream. Smooth and much less effort specially for front shifting. Also the black and silver is more neutral and fits into most builds and with most bike colours.
I currently run 2013 SRAM Red on my Parlee and it is much better in feel than older Red with fast and accurate front shifting. Much on a par with DA9000 in terms of shift speed and accuracy of shifting. New Red brakes are amongst the best with great modulation and feel. With big grey and red logos, SRAM RED doesn't look right on a lot of frames due to clash of colours. I reckon a Black on Black version would be a great.
Leaving electronic groups out the equation for now, I like SRAM AND Shimano as I can run same wheels for both, in the process of having new wheels built on 11 Speed compatible hubs.
Campy is really good in terms of quality and durability as well as being able to repair or replace individual parts. I just don't like the thumb shift, but that is just a personal preference. One of the biggest reasons I don't have a bike with Campag SR on it is because of wheel compatibility.

When it comes to electronic Shimano is the current clear leader with internal batteries, wiring harness, remote and sprint shifters and weight.
EPS is good, but lags on integration and the battery box is BIG and hard to hide.

Second tier groups like Chorus, Ultegra and Force work just as well as their more expensive alternatives, with about a 200g penalty, but at nearly half the price of a top tier group. Brilliant options for training bikes, commuters or if you are on a budget. I was 40before I could afford bikes with DA or Red, and can say 105 and Ultegra work well and are durable.
At the end of the day there are no "bad" groupsets, they all shift the gears accurately if set up well.
Good quality cables and proper set up can make any groupset work pretty well.
At the end of the day aesthetics, lever feel and price would be the biggest factor in choosing a group. They are all pretty good.

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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 137
Thanks. I guess what got me thinking about this was two things. First I'm in the process of upgrading, second, when I was getting back into biking last spring, at the bike shops, as I was learning the new groups(at the time I had never ridden SRAM), the salepeople were less vague than alot of you guys on here.

They were for the most part.
"how much do you want to spend"
"105 is better than apex, rival is better than 105. If you have the money get Ultegra"

pretty much period. Not too much telling me about my preferences or anything. To them is was a straight tier system based on priced. I think you've got to understand that not all of us have been riding as long as you and it's ok to ask a beginner question and not treated like a piece of dirt for not knowing. Either that or there will be alot of people that just believe the salesman when they say Force is better than Ultegra.

But on here you say it is not so simple, and I tend to believe that. That Force and Ultegra are comperable and it's really user preference at that point. But there is a hierarchy. Dura Ace is better than Apex. And all systems are not equal, it's all about price, performance, strength, weight.

I'm not trying to get into a Shimano vs. SRAM debate. I understand that the highest group by each manufacturer can be viewed as the best by it's fans and each has something to recommend. It's a big investment though. I'd like to think that I would like Campagnolo, I would like to get it, but I have never ridden it. I don't have a shop in town that has a Chorus or record equipped bike in my size for me to try, so I have to either take a leap of faith or stick with what I know.

What I've got right now is really good. Really good, in fact, better than I thought I would have at this point, but I've gotten bitten by some bike bug and I keep wanting to upgrade. I guess that's part of the hobby for me now. Part of the fun, to upgrade, switch, try new things.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 7310
Location: Geeeelong!
Northoceanbeach wrote:
I think you've got to understand that not all of us have been riding as long as you and it's ok to ask a beginner question and not treated like a piece of dirt for not knowing.

1.) no one is treating you like a piece of dirt

2.) there are a myriad number of threads about this. When I joined (near on 4 years ago it seems :shock: ) I honestly had no idea what a rear derailleur was. But I searched and read more old threads than I care to remember.

I recommend the same for you. There is a ton of great info on here, just set aside a few hours and a pot of coffee and go through when there is something you're looking to understand. 99 times out of 100 you'll find it (assuming it's a 'beginners' type question you have).


It might also spare you some of the slating you're getting for starting what some are seeing as very basic threads.

:welcome:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
It's not very pleasant only being offered one flavor of Ice cream. In London, all the supermarket bike shops try to brainwash the unwashed and largely succeed; this is nothing against Shimano, I'd say the same if Campag was dominant in 90% of all bike shops. In this case I'd say, well, I'e got a Japanese watch and Mp3 player, they've been Ok, can I get a look at seeing if they produce bike equipment. A crystal vase is elegant, the adjective means sod all if it doesn't perform. What it boils down to is this; many, but certainly not all of us, choose to put Campy Chorus or above on our top steeds. It has a more organic feel, and when your knackered after going beyond your current training limit, it will get you home in the 50, well, in a more personal way, and reeking of class. If you find the same with Shim and Sram, that's fine as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:37 am
Posts: 80
Northoceanbeach wrote:
I'd like to think that I would like Campagnolo, I would like to get it, but I have never ridden it. I don't have a shop in town that has a Chorus or record equipped bike in my size for me to try, so I have to either take a leap of faith or stick with what I know.


Seems like you want a specific recommendation.

Do you have budget constraints?

If you do, then you will love Chorus. If not, then you'll love (Super) Record.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:28 pm
Posts: 380
Northoceanbeach wrote:
To them is was a straight tier system based on priced.


Of course it was. A lot of sales people in bike shops (and I have been one on numerous occasions) don't actually have a great deal of experience in using the equipment they sell. So, to them more expensive is synonymous with "better".

Check out this thread:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48827&hilit=bike+shop+stupid+heard

They also have a vested interest in you believing that the most expensive stuff is the best.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Location: Geeeelong!
Now if ever there was a reason to go through old threads, that would be one of them.

Good link Privateer, that thread is full of lol's :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:57 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Denver
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

mattydubs wrote:
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Quote:
Where are you racing that it's this cold? Granted, it's a wonderful image, but I don't know if that's the only concern one should have.



Not Geoff but just imagine a cyclo-cross race during the winter season in Canada or Belgium or wherever temperatures drop to well below minus 10 degrees Celcius. Add humidity, gloves getting wet and so forth and I'm sure you can see the picture.

It's not just your fingers freezing, in extreme cases it will also be your eyes, your toes. IOW all of the body's venal extremities.

Cycling is an extreme sport, boxing is for wussies.... (just kidding about boxing, it is ranked, together with cycling, as a very tough expression of sports).

Ciao, ;)


Considering this question was posted to the "road" vs the "cx/touring" forum I arrogantly assumed that cx was not the OPs intended application. Silly me.


Those circumstances, even though they seem rather extreme, are not limited to cyclo-cross alone.
Either way, I assume Geoff speaks from personal experience and the only reason I defend his view is that I concur.
The cyclo-cross part is my example of how extreme cycling can get but it can happen on road races just the same only less frequently so.

Point taken though. 8)

Ciao, ;)


No your point is totally valid. I was wearing my sassy pants. I do think that is a bit of an extreme case. I've definitely used SRAM in the same type of situation and the real killer, at least on an icy mountain descent, is working the brake levers with numb hands. No bueno.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:57 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Denver
Northoceanbeach wrote:
Thanks. I guess what got me thinking about this was two things. First I'm in the process of upgrading, second, when I was getting back into biking last spring, at the bike shops, as I was learning the new groups(at the time I had never ridden SRAM), the salepeople were less vague than alot of you guys on here.

They were for the most part.
"how much do you want to spend"
"105 is better than apex, rival is better than 105. If you have the money get Ultegra"

pretty much period. Not too much telling me about my preferences or anything. To them is was a straight tier system based on priced. I think you've got to understand that not all of us have been riding as long as you and it's ok to ask a beginner question and not treated like a piece of dirt for not knowing. Either that or there will be alot of people that just believe the salesman when they say Force is better than Ultegra.

But on here you say it is not so simple, and I tend to believe that. That Force and Ultegra are comperable and it's really user preference at that point. But there is a hierarchy. Dura Ace is better than Apex. And all systems are not equal, it's all about price, performance, strength, weight.

I'm not trying to get into a Shimano vs. SRAM debate. I understand that the highest group by each manufacturer can be viewed as the best by it's fans and each has something to recommend. It's a big investment though. I'd like to think that I would like Campagnolo, I would like to get it, but I have never ridden it. I don't have a shop in town that has a Chorus or record equipped bike in my size for me to try, so I have to either take a leap of faith or stick with what I know.

What I've got right now is really good. Really good, in fact, better than I thought I would have at this point, but I've gotten bitten by some bike bug and I keep wanting to upgrade. I guess that's part of the hobby for me now. Part of the fun, to upgrade, switch, try new things.


To make it more clear, if you want a better response we need to know more about your use case.

Answer the following as best you can:

What kind of riding do you do? Long training rides, commuting, etc.
Do you want to race?
What is your budget?
What frame is this going on?
What about your physiology? Are you a big chap, are you a tiny climber type?

These things matter. Without knowing more about you and how you intend or do ride (intend is important too: maybe you want to race crits next season, maybe you want to do some audax type riding) all anyone can do is give you vague answers.

Yes, the big three all make nice group sets. Yes it comes down to preference at some point. I'd love to tell you "get apex" or "ultegra di2" but I have no idea what you want to do or what your budget is.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 137
Well, thanks, I did want a bit of general knowledge, so that I could better help friends, counter the unknowledgeable salespeople when I come across them.

As for me personally?

I want a cohesive groupset. I would buy Campagnolo almost solely for the fact it's made in Italy.
I weight on the light side and climb way more than sprint.
I have budget constraint, but if I can convince myself I'll love and need super record, than I'mk sure I'll find Super Record on my bike(though I'm shooting for Chorus)
I don't like the looks of Shimano because they don't use much carbon. At one point I was wishing my entire bike was made out of carbon and a little ti.
I'm going to race this season, if I don't travel to far off the beaten path.
I don't really NEED anything better than what I have, except my apex brakes are really bad, but I've got new brakes coming.
My rides are shorter but more frequent, I'll soon increase the duration. Weather varies, I've probably cycled in 20 states this year and am going to start adding countries this summer.
This is going on a Cannondale Supersix 2011 Himod. It's all Black and white and all the other parts are a high end mix.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7411
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Campagnolo drivetrains are made in Romania, not Italy, however this does not decrease the quality of the product. Just a point of information.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 282
Since you are budget and weight conscious, and likely racing: (all prices are approximate fair fleabay rates) I'm discounting campy because of its higher price, and lower availability, as well as the likelyhood of damage through racing)

Rival front and rear derailluer, (rival/force front are the same weight - same part afaik) Can go 2013 red Yaw for better shifting if your budget allows.
You should be able to pick up the pair for sub $100, and in black. They shift extremely well for the cost, and are within 50grams or so of the red parts for way less money. $100 (admittedly, I haven't ridden the apex, so not sure what the jump is - simply because the rival parts are plenty cheap for my applications)

Ultegra or 105 cassette (supposedly the lock ring is the only difference in weight, sub 10g), (shimano shifts smoother, and unless you get the $200+ red cassette, the weight isn't a big diff) - $50

2013 force, or older sram red levers. both seem to be the same, and should be available for ~$300 - you get the red weight, and zero loss on both sides.

Whatever brakes you want - though hard to beat the planet-x cnc brakes @ $130 shipped @ 200grams. Make sure to get better pads though. Supposedly if you call them, you can convince them to send some with the swiss stop pads on them.

Cranks...what you have is likely good enough, but you can spend $350-$375 here and drop some serious grams (Sram red exogram bb30). So much so, that you are likely better off sticking money into your cranks than derailleurs...especially since you are a ton more likely to destroy a derailleur in a mishap than a crank.

Chain - I'd go ultegra or KCNC, depending on budget, and your proclivity to putting $ into wear parts.

Assuming you are running Apex currently, you should be able to buy the pieces one at a time as well, and keep your Apex in reserve for emergencies, or sell it for a little bit of $.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
^^^^ Great, thoughtful post there.

You are keen on trying out Campagnolo, so maybe try it off and on over the next season through test rides or whatever, see if you like it. Save up and when you're ready make the switch (if you want to). In the meantime, if you're racing and ride a hell of a lot in many places, and budget minded, aim for compatibility with what you currently have going and upgrade selectively.

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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:55 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:15 am 
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that is good advice. Thanks.


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