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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:10 am 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

You could do that but then why gamble when you could use proper Krytox grease just the same?
After all it is available in various viscosities.

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:10 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Hi fdegrove, ahh the Krytox GPL226 grease that eric suggested :)

Is this the one you would use as a grease?

If so, where can it be easily obtained ... thanks :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:04 pm 
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As mentioned above, and it is also my opinion, that the brand of grease or oil is not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is how it is applied. Use oil only on the pawls. I like Phil wood tenacious oil, or Finish line century lube. They are high viscosity for an oil, but still not a grease. The pawls need to be able to spring out freely and grease can stick them down so they don't engage rapidly.

Grease is use to coat the outer ratchets. This slows wear and quiets the freewheel. I like any heavy marine grease that with STAY IN PLACE. Phil Wood and some of the other greases are good lubricating greases, but actually are a little to runny at high temperature for me to like on freewheel pawls.

If you put too much oil on the pawls, then it just flies out and dilutes the grease, which then becomes runny and goes everywhere, so a little constraint is valuable in application.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Hi Rick, that application sounds very good and simple :)
Have you ever noticed the grease ever moving from the ratchet and interfering with the pawls ... thanks :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
Hi fdegrove, ahh the Krytox GPL226 grease that eric suggested


Actually I think it's 225 for the higher viscosity (this is what goes inside Ceramic Speed bearings) or type 205 which I think is some of ABI Enduro bearings are using. Both are available from Superfly Cycles in the US.

BTW, if you put oil on the pawls then there's no point in putting grease on the ratchet system since the oil will simply mix with the grease which then will migrate to the bearing(s) inside the hub.

On a Campa hub for instance you'd only want a little bit of grease on the seat of each pawl. Not anywhere else. The main advantage of Krytox lubricant is that the Krytox additive will have bonded to the metal. Even if you used it only once it will take some doing to remove it and with it's properties.
Hence the suggestion on the Derby car site that's been quoted higher up.

Either way, it's wise to first see what the manufacturer of the hub recommends and also be aware of how you clean that part of the bike, cogs and chain (if you do not remove it) especially.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:05 am 
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Hi fdegrove and Rick, yes, I think that's a very good approach :)

Krytox GPL 100 all bearing, pawl, and ratchet surfaces as per instructions (that is wiping off any excess and allowing time for the krytox to bond to all surfaces), then grease (Krytox GPL 205/225/226, Marine (Belray/Nulon), R&R Red Devil, etc grease of your choice) the ratchet system, freehub needle bearings, pawl seats only (very small amount), and seals :)

Does this sound correct ...thanks :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:57 am 
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Hi fdegrove, another question is ... can Krytox GPL 100 be also used for chains and why isn't currently being used for chains :)

Chains would have to be one of the highest friction components on a bicycle ...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:26 am 
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KLabs wrote:
Hi Rick, that application sounds very good and simple :)
Have you ever noticed the grease ever moving from the ratchet and interfering with the pawls ... thanks :)

That is rare, because centrifugal force tends to throw things outward. That is also why I like a heavy grease, because it stays in place at the ratchet.

It is more likely that oil flies off the pwls and into the grease and dilutes it. I have had that happen, that is why I know that you should only use a little bit of oil on the pawls. ;)

But getting oil into the grease isn't catastrophic. It just means the noise comes back earlier.
Getting grease into the pawls can be catastrophic, because then your freewheel doesn't engage rapidly. I also had that happen on a new wheel that was only greased with a heavy grease at the factory. It effectivly glued the pawls down. Generally I am pretty tolerant of freewheel noise, although silent is preferrable. I have a DT240 hub with a star ratchet that simply can't be quieted. IT sounds like I am wasting about 40 watts of acoustic energy! (I'm exaggerating of course.)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:24 pm 
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Hi Rick, thanks for the reply and informative experience :)

Hi fdegrove, I have some Krytox GPL 100 and 205 on the way (expensive ... ouch :shock: ). I will let you know what I think of it :)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:10 am 
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Hi,

Yeah...It does not come cheap but it sure does a good job at reducing friction. By extension it will also reduce wear so it kind of pays for itself really.

Further to Rick's noisy DT240 freehub (DT wants you to use their proprietary grease for that, IIRC), I once had a Campa Bora Ultra set which had some slightly off standard size pawls.
They were only longer by a few microns but made a hellish racket once you stopped pedalling. They did a great job as a bell though. :mrgreen:

A noisy freewheel does slow you down though so, eventually, I did replace the pawls and all was back to normal.
Ever noticed how professional always seem to pedal? They hardly ever stop pedalling, do they?
I wonder if they're actulaly aware of the fact that it slows them down. Just something I wonder.

While we're at an anecdotal level, I first found out about Krytox through a chain lube that had that particular additive in it.
I didn't like it as a chain lube as the hype was a bit misleading (as usual) but it did make me look up the properties of Krytox.
Since that product also contains wax, all it takes to separate that from the rest is to let it sink to the bottom of the bottle.

Once that was done, I decided to try the top part of the bottle's content out as a lube that would replace the grease in the USB Campa bearings. I was stunned to the point that I checked and checked again that this was really the cause of the improvementt. As it turned out it was.
I had run these babies on oil before and had noticed the difference between that and the otherwse excellent Campa grease but this was just a major step beyond. It felt as if all friction had vanished.

That being said, this is already relatively old tech as there are much better technologies available to reduce friction.
They're just starting to be applied now. Often more as a selling argument than a true and thoughtfully applied improvement but it's a start.

Reducing friction is like shedding weight. It makes you feel as if you ride a lighter bike.

Looking forward to your feedback, ;)

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Last edited by fdegrove on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:31 am 
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Hi fdegrove, interesting, are there any wax chain oils currently on the market (that you are aware of) that contain Krytox GPL oil ... :)

You know another thing that intrigues me is that they use Krytox GPL100 oil (c/w additives) for Soap Box Derby racing in the US ... interesting :)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:56 am 
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Hi,

Well I don't know if it contains this oil or grease but it does contains the fluoropolymer Dupont de Nemours calls Krytox.
This is likely to be available to the industry in a variety of forms other than greases and oils.

The product I was referring to is this one:

http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/kry-tech.htm

Unfortunately the only seem to use this additive in this chain lube and nothing else. No idea why this is so.

If you search for this Krytox stuff you will indeed receive a fair number of hits. Mostly from these Derby racing cars and strangely not much else....

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Location: Triange, NC
Dupont's "Teflon Chain Saver" spray lube is designed for your bike chain and includes Teflon (PTFE) in a wax carrier. This is a little more appropriate for chain duty than Krytox, a very similar synthetic compound designed more as a grease (for high stress and thermal applications). It would be difficult to lube a chain with Krytox given the tight tolerances after the chain has been constructed. The idea behind Teflon Chain Lube is that the liquid wax carries the PTFE it into the moving parts, then gradually flakes away while the Teflon becomes imbedded in the pores of the metal. Here the lubrication properties are superb and since the wax slowly flakes away the chain doesn't pick up much dirt. It runs much cleaner. Is it any better than the other wet or dry type lubes.....well its hard to say since typical bicycle chain duty is not severe at all. But I can attest the Dupont product does work well and I will continue to use it. My chain stays very quiet and doesn't pick up the dirt that other lubes do. Not expensive either.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Im really pissed that my 240 rear hub with the upgraded 190 36t star ratchet upgrade is making me slower while coasting, will oil on the pawls help?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:00 pm 
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I use slickoleum also known as buzzy's honey. I use it on both the pawls and also with the ceramic balls in my fulcrum and shimano hubs.

It doesn't wash away, is sticky and slimy and when you get it on your fingers it just spreads every where!!

I did have the 8oz pots of slickoleum in my store, but the tubs it came in tended to get damaged during postage and the grease would leak everywhere and make a real mess even when wrapped in cling wrap a few times. It is a large amount of grease too so I might get some of the smaller tubs to see if they are more robust.

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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:00 pm 


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