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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:46 pm 
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VNTech wrote:
Yep, just minor modification. Perhaps mine are pre-production, I'll double check. Regardless, that isn't in my story, left this one to shifter/derailleur compatibility.


Understood...except the new FD works best with the new rings. So, knowing if one can fit the new rings onto older cranks might be important info, no?

VNTech wrote:
mca56 — you are correct, I tested with old Rival (with trim in the small ring) and old Red (with trim in the big ring) shifters. For some reason I got the two switched around here, apologies. SRAM moved the trim function from inner to outer a few years ago, oddly enough the old inner trim shifters work better with the new stuff (getting rid of that small/small chain rub that I mentioned).


Good to hear since I'm still running my 1st gen Force shifters (w/trim in small ring) :D


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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:01 pm 
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tanhalt wrote:
VNTech wrote:
Yep, just minor modification. Perhaps mine are pre-production, I'll double check. Regardless, that isn't in my story, left this one to shifter/derailleur compatibility.


Understood...except the new FD works best with the new rings. So, knowing if one can fit the new rings onto older cranks might be important info, no?

VNTech wrote:
mca56 — you are correct, I tested with old Rival (with trim in the small ring) and old Red (with trim in the big ring) shifters. For some reason I got the two switched around here, apologies. SRAM moved the trim function from inner to outer a few years ago, oddly enough the old inner trim shifters work better with the new stuff (getting rid of that small/small chain rub that I mentioned).


Good to hear since I'm still running my 1st gen Force shifters (w/trim in small ring) :D


Indeed, but the story is plenty long already! How about I just check on the rings today for you guys and it can be a WW exclusive? ;) After all, most consumers won't be interested in jery-rigging a chainring or running it with the crank pin in the wrong spot — that's WW madness.

I was told by SRAM at the launch that they don't plan on producing chainrings with their timing for regular 5-arm cranks, but I'm not sure I believe that. I do believe that other companies will probably produce rings that are designed around the Yaw FD though, but it'll be a few months before those start cropping up.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Has anyone tried the new Red shifters and FD in combination with Rotor rings?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Just checked for ya tanhalt. Don't bother. Ramps/pins are all in the wrong place, you lose the shifting benefit. Shifts worse than Yaw FD + old Force rings. Plus you have that silly pin sticking out.

However, I was wrong about the big ring not being able to mount up without modification. The LITTLE ring can't mount up unless you file the tab that would normally attach directly to the big ring down a bit. Although since it's a little ring, it would be easier just to run an old one.

Long story short: don't bother with new rings + old cranks.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:16 pm 
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VNTech wrote:
Just checked for ya tanhalt. Don't bother. Ramps/pins are all in the wrong place, you lose the shifting benefit. Shifts worse than Yaw FD + old Force rings. Plus you have that silly pin sticking out.


Thanks for checking Caley!

At the risk of becoming a pain in the butt on this subject though, I'm not sure if I understand the "Ramps/pins are all in the wrong place..." comment. The drop pin we knew about (but that's really just an aesthetics issue IMHO) but if the rings are kept in phase with each other, how can they be in the "wrong place" relative to the pedal stroke when they are rotated 180 degrees? I guess I'm asking what the frame of reference is for that determination of "wrong-ness". The way I see it, if you rotate the rings 180 degrees out of phase with the crank arms, if you take the location of the ramps pins in relation to, for example, the right crankarm, now they are in that same relation to the left crankarm...so, how can that be an issue? If the ramps/pins are located with respect to a downstroke, then they're in the same relation but just with the downstroke on the opposite leg. Something's not adding up...:noidea:

VNTech wrote:
However, I was wrong about the big ring not being able to mount up without modification. The LITTLE ring can't mount up unless you file the tab that would normally attach directly to the big ring down a bit. Although since it's a little ring, it would be easier just to run an old one.


That's good to know...filing is a fairly easy and quick mod to do :D


VNTech wrote:
Long story short: don't bother with new rings + old cranks.


I guess I'll have to say that I'm not convinced of that yet... :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:39 pm 
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I thought the same, since flopping 180˚ should keep the ramps/pins correctly timed. But I didn't file the little ring, I just threw and old Red little ring on. Perhaps it is the spacing that is causing the problem? Whatever the problem is (and I don't have time to spend investigating, sadly), the result is that it doesn't work well.

Since I only have one set here, I'm not going to be filing anything anytime soon.

Just for giggles, I did try running the rings turned just one slot. Results were predictably terrible as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:47 pm 
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VNTech wrote:
I thought the same, since flopping 180˚ should keep the ramps/pins correctly timed. But I didn't file the little ring, I just threw and old Red little ring on. Perhaps it is the spacing that is causing the problem? Whatever the problem is (and I don't have time to spend investigating, sadly), the result is that it doesn't work well.

Since I only have one set here, I'm not going to be filing anything anytime soon.

Just for giggles, I did try running the rings turned just one slot. Results were predictably terrible as well.


Yeah...I'm betting the spacing got screwed up with the old Red small ring.

I think you need to get your hands on the small ring that's supplied with the 2012 S975 crank and then see :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:33 pm 
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VNTech wrote:
Just filed the compatibility story, should be up tomorrow morning (U.S. time).

Tanhalt, you are basically correct. Everything is backwards compatible, the only tricky bit is the lack of trim on the new shifters. However, you are incorrect about the new chainrings, they won't go on old cranks without modification (even if you didn't mind the pin being in the wrong place). They're still 130bcd, but the mount point behind the crankarm requires a different shape.

If you want the new shifters, you need to get the new crankset unless you don't mind a bit of small/small chain rub. With old shifters, the trim takes care of that. Shifting with new Yaw FD + old rings is about 80% as good as with the new crankset, but still much better than the old group.



OK, so the new crank works with the old FD? This is one of the central compatibility questions because it gets to the core of whether the new crank will also work with Shimano FD, which is a pretty common setup and prob will be even more common now that the Red crank is so light...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:41 pm 
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thumper88 wrote:

OK, so the new crank works with the old FD? This is one of the central compatibility questions because it gets to the core of whether the new crank will also work with Shimano FD, which is a pretty common setup and prob will be even more common now that the Red crank is so light...



Full story will be up shortly that details a whole bunch of combinations. But yes, new crank works with old Red FD with marginal performance improvement, and works very well with Dura-Ace FD. Also, the new Red chain catcher mounts up easily to old SRAM FD's as well as braze-on Shimano FD's. Handy dandy.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:21 pm 
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VNTech wrote:
thumper88 wrote:

OK, so the new crank works with the old FD? This is one of the central compatibility questions because it gets to the core of whether the new crank will also work with Shimano FD, which is a pretty common setup and prob will be even more common now that the Red crank is so light...



Full story will be up shortly that details a whole bunch of combinations. But yes, new crank works with old Red FD with marginal performance improvement, and works very well with Dura-Ace FD. Also, the new Red chain catcher mounts up easily to old SRAM FD's as well as braze-on Shimano FD's. Handy dandy.



Thanks Caley, that's a huge help. For complicated reasons I need to commit on whether or not to get the new quarq crank tonight, and I want to run it with my 7900 without having to drop serious moola on shifters, FD, RD and new cables.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:01 pm 
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tanhalt wrote:
robdamanii wrote:
Same question, but with new shifters and old model front derailleur?


Which chainrings? With old chainrings, it should work (since the cable pull is the same) but you won't have any trim function. It's up to you if that's a problem or not.

With the new chainrings I can't imagine it would work very well because of the wider spacing between rings at the teeth. That's why it's important to match the FD to the rings.


Old Red crank and chainrings. Nothing changing except the shifters.

I figured it would work just fine, but always nice to have confirmation. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:19 am 
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story is up

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/ ... ity_209270

curious how will praxis chainrings work with the new sram front derailleur.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:31 am 
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Nice write up! I love it.

Is there any reason to go old Red shifter and new rear derailleur? Does the new rear derailleur offer any performance gain in shifting?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:25 am 
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Not that I can tell. It's quieter, and a bit lighter, and looks nicer. And it's new, so plenty of people will buy it.

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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:25 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:41 am 
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VNTech wrote:
Not that I can tell. It's quieter, and a bit lighter, and looks nicer. And it's new, so plenty of people will buy it.


Ha! That's the truth - and it applies equally to me. I totally want the new one because of looks! But the weight savings is minimal (to me) at 10g or so; and the 2011 red derailleur is going for like $170 new now... so I think I'll stick with 2011 as i'm upgrading to Red over the next month. From your article, my plan now is to go with 2011 shifter, rear derailleur, and I already have the 2011 crank, and then just go with the 2012 front derailleur. That should give me the 9/10.


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