Grifter is a bit strong.

In the bike business it isn't uncommon for guys to have a "dream" to develop and sell a product, but they don't really have the funds to make it happen... and are piss poor with finances... and are not above using shady businesses practices to get what they want. Some of these end up being very successful if the product is good and they eventually get better funding... and hopefully business management. Many others go down in flames and burn through all the customer money they can get on the way down.

It isn't uncommon for these parts to have no engineering and no long-term testing at all. It's because we like shiny new stuff... and we engage in a fairly risky hobby anyway. We are a good target market.

Caimillo is obviously a successful company, though I have no idea what their current finances are like. The risk isn't as bad as it would be if they were new.

I'm not much of a beta tester myself... not if I have to pay for the privilege. The cranks look interesting, but the "glued and screwed" method of joining dissimilar materials, and using 3 hollow tubes seems inherently messy and inefficient (stiffness and strength vs weight) to me.

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formerly rruff...

We have lawsuits instead...

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formerly rruff...

+1 to WMW. Even if you're not a degreed engineer, take a hard look at those 3 little tubes, then think about your typical 150 to 200lb. rider yanking the bars and stomping the pedals with all your might. No amount of screws or glue will stop that torque. And forget about the center tube having any effect (it's the axis of torque), so you're really asking two little tubes to take all the twisting stress.

I'm also happy to wait-and-see, but not at my expense. It just doesn't work that way. He ought to take his concept crank onto that TV show where a panel of venture capitalists evaluate prototypes and decide whether to finance them.

I second the motion

[/quote]The cranks look interesting, but the "glued and screwed" method of joining dissimilar materials, and using 3 hollow tubes seems inherently messy and inefficient (stiffness and strength vs weight) to me.[/quote]

glued and screwed, are you referring to the people that put up cash already or the cranks?

yes, yes the U.S. is rife with litigation

and it can be found in the EU as well.

I understand the point you are making Stephen but my issue is that Ciamillo came straight on to the ww sight offering an exclusive deal and posting a photo . They knew some ww would bite and put down a deposit for a crank which was and as far as we know still not finished and tested. Its not the right way to do things.
We know the score and whats going on and thats not the right way to go about things . They could have easily came on the sight and asked if any ww want to help finance the development of a new crank .
That would have been more honest . We spend a lot of money on parts and frames and we deserve to be treated well and not taken advantage of.

For me it wasn't all that terrible (at least at this point). I went into this well aware of the history of ZG, and I kept printed copies of everything involved. I think Ted is a brilliant engineer but he either needs to be an employee or hire someone to manage the sales/customer service side of things.

By comparison, I recently had one of the WW posters build a carbon cradle for my seatpost. As I had previous correspondence with him, had seen his reputation and had others who also placed orders verify his reliability, I had no issue having him build that part for me, even though he's not in the US. As it turned out, I ended up selling a stem to a friend of his and deducting the cost of the cradle from the stem and his friend paid him that part.

When it took a little over 5 weeks to arrive, the builder/seller was talking about how to resolve the problem when I didn't think there was one- we stayed in touch and it showed up. I was never worried and never had any doubts.

Funny, I also had an issue w/ C-4, but the shop I purchased the wheels from rebuilt the front wheel with a different hub and made things right. In this case, there's no one else to go to, unless you paid with a credit card.

My intention here is not to bash, only to share my experience. I doubt there will be any response to my post because what I posted is true (and I have a paper trail to back it up).

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Speedplay is the devil.

Ciamillo isn't some upstart company working out of a garage trying to actualize a dream. They've been around a while and have a sordid history of mishandling trusting customers good faith payments. Just do a search here on the forum. Can't imagine anyone sending $ to that guy after members had to file CC claims against him. Maybe not a grifter in a criminal way. Ethically? Not such a stretch.

Thanks for that reply artray, I completely agree with it. I wasn't sure how to put the last post I did, but all I was trying to say is that I don't like it when threads start demonising people/companies, which I believe is what you took from my post. I know a lot of good people who have left this forum because of the name calling that has happened in the past, not even to them directly, it's just the manner in which it happens. I always appreciate and back factual posts such as mdeths, it's the name calling I have a problem with. I would like to see Ciamillo respond to the comments posted here just so that we have all sides of the story although I don't know if that will happen or not.

I'm hoping that's not directed at me, as if it is then your post has no merit whatsoever as many ww members will testify too.

You all forgeting what happened to the other topic, it was close by moderators, because of all this type of talk.

The question here is the Crank it'selve, and all the people ist talking about the brand, and how did the pre-order, and now want's the money back.!!!!

i'm not defending no one here, but wait t'ill Ted answer (that shloud been already) or one of the user do a review of the Crank, to see if it's any good at all, i read about people here sayd that only the two roods will suport the forces etc... wait for the tecnical part.

Everybody as problem with some brands, i had mine, but that is another subject.

Talk about the Product.

TED it's up to YOU!!!

kind of a funny thread.

along similar lines of taking a loooooooooong time for something, i helped a pal of mine get the new thm m3 cranks for his bike. it took maybe 5 months beginning to end. delay after delay after delay....

but, and this is a very important "but:" no money changed hands until it was available and in stock. the delay was nobody's fault other than simply a slow-boat-to-market arrival of the crank & spider.

why no hassle? we dealt with a bike shop that provides many in the ww crowd the swank parts this boutique market calls for. meaning, if they have 'em, they'll charge for it and ship 'em. if not, well, the best thing to do is sit back and relax and go pop open a bottle of wine. ain't no use gettin' worked up over what ain't at the bike shop, and even better is no money lost. service service service: that's what you get from a good shop, and those guys run a really good shop from every experience i've ever had.

by the way, if you guys want something cool and light, check out those m3's. they're nice!!! compact or standard interchangeable spider too. we got his set up with praxis rings, it looks so good. ridden to a state championship to boot. gotta love it.

p.s. i'd never deal directly with ciamillo based on what's here and what i've seen elsewhere on the ww forum. have always lusted after a set of their carbon fiber brakes one day, but methinks i'll pass. what's the saying, fool me once....

That's what I always liked about THM. Their cranks are great but more importantly, when I first had an interest in the original Claviculas, they didn't hide the fact that there was a 26 week turnaround time. In my opinion, still well worth waiting for.

I like Thm too, and i have a Clavicula Rock Solid in my MTB bike, for 5 years now, an for shure that a Clavicula or a M3 will be great in my Vamoots RSL, since i have bought the Scapula F and Fibula Rear in Matt Black.

But i'm allways looking for something diferente, so i will wait to see proper reviews of this Crank and the EE ones that are on the way too.

in terms of weight to Hollowgram SL that i have the improvement will be Zero on bought cranks, so stiffness
could be the only improvement???? or i keep what i have.

Let's see.?????