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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Location: Denver
I was only able to find one cryptic comment on this with a search, and would like some confirmation that this is possible...

I am helping a friend build up a new bike (Orbea Orca) with Campy Chorus (11 speed)- we are sourcing primarily used components to save money. We've found most everything but the front derailleur, which we have not been able to find yet at a good price, although I have seen quite a few 10 speed FD's for sale cheap (he needs braze on, which seem to be more scarce or expensive).

What is the difference between the 10 and 11 speed front derailleurs (this would be the last generation 10 speed - QS)? Is the geometry/ cable pull ratio the same, and can they be interchanged? Everything else (shifters and chainrings, rear derailleur) we are using is 11 speed. Is there much difference between Chorus and Athena 11 speed FD besides weight (can find the latter for about $50 instead of $100)? Faced with a choice of Athena 11 speed and used Chorus or Record 10 speed FD's at similar prices, what's the best option?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:18 pm 
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The difference between 10speed and 11speed campy front derailleurs is in the cage width. Put next to each other, the outer cage comes out farther before bending down.


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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:18 pm 
  • 6.00 € (including 19% VAT)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Location: Denver
Do you mean that the 10 speed is wider? Does this impact on shifting with an 11 speed drive train?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Running 10 speed record FD / crankset with otherwise chorus 11 speed.

Cannot compare to 11 speed Front shifting, but it is flawless (shifts very good).

i think you can get away with 10 speed FD. athena should be perfect as well.

Oren


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:44 pm 
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I recently converted 2 bikes from 10 to 11 speed - one is Chorus and the other Athena.

Kept the 10-speed FD in both cases and they work fine.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Location: Central USA
10 speed crank - use 10 front der. 11 speed crank use 11 front der.

If you try the wider 10 speed cage on the narrower spaced crank - to get a good clean upshift to large ring the front der needs to move a certain amount to the right.....as the shifting is done by the inside face of the cage. To get that good solid upshift with a 10 speed front der the outer cage will be a bit more outboard and may strike or nearly strike the right crankarm...and due to it's more outboard orientation it can also increase chance to over shift off to the outside of the large ring. This is with an otherwise properly aligned front der..... Yes a 10 front der can work but I found on 2 different bikes that switching to an 11 front der was (a bit) more positive shifting but more importantly gave me much more confidence that it will work each time and everytime as intended.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:42 pm 
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I've used 10 speed FDs with an 11 speed drivetrain, but you will get the best results with a narrower cage 11 speed. If you're buying very many Campy parts, it pays to use a supplier from the UK, like Ribble. When I buy, I stock up on cables, chains and other consumables (tire are usually a lot cheaper too).

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/pp/road-t ... -road/grfr


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Location: Denver
Thanks, Dave- I was hoping you would weigh in on this!

We bought most of the components thus far from a single seller on ebay, in nearly new condition and way less than half the price of new, even from the UK websites. We will be buying the cassette and chain from Ribble once they come into stock, and will probably get either the Chorus or Athena from there as well (its up to him to decide if 20gms is worth $50 to him!).If the cost is about the same we might as well go with the 11 speed.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:26 pm 
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In my limited experience, the important thing up front is that you match your crank to your DR, and in the back the important thing is to match your shifter to your cassette.

If you are in the US I would also give Velomine in Illinois a call. They have alot of new old stock that they will amke good deals on. I just ordered about half a Centaur 10sp groups to rebuild a bike with. I talked to Ben, they seem to be good folks there.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:24 am 
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Location: the Netherlands
for what it's worth I couldn't see/measure any differences between the latest 10 speed record and the firts 11 speed SR version. I installed it and it worked flawless. Same experience with severall different setups and in most occasions there it worked fine.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:20 am 
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sharkman wrote:
for what it's worth I couldn't see/measure any differences between the latest 10 speed record and the firts 11 speed SR version. I installed it and it worked flawless. Same experience with severall different setups and in most occasions there it worked fine.


The 11 speed FD has a narrower cage and if set up properly only takes 3 clicks to cover the full range of travel. Most 10 speed RDs will take 4 clicks. Not a big deal, but they are different.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:44 am 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Most 10 speed RDs will take 4 clicks. Not a big deal, but they are different.


Where does this come from?

Campagnolo clearly state that all FD's for double crankset should be set up to work with 3 clicks.

Quote from document: "Front_Derailleur_Double_UK_11_12":

"The derailleur must work in 3 clicks" end of quote. The document shows installation and setup procedure for all currently available 10 and 11S FDs BTW.

They also clearly advise not to mix 10S FD within 11S systems and vice versa. I tend to agree.
That said, the difference in spacing between 11S chainrings and 10S ones is only 1mm. AFAIK all 11S FD come in the same cage width anyhow.

Ciao, ;)

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Last edited by fdegrove on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:22 am 
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Previous ergopower 10speed systems basically required 4clicks. Current ones are not offered in UltraShift, only QS, or whatever they call it. [URL]http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/7225251_Ergopower_0307.pdf
[/URL]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:58 pm 
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To fdegrove:

The topic is mixing 10 speed FDs with 11 speed drivetrains. There are a couple different versions of 10 speed FDs, since some are QS compatible and others are pre-QS. The QS models will definitely require 4 clicks if used with the narrower 11 speed chain and I would expect that a 4-click setup may even be required with a 2009 or newer 10 speed FDs, due to both a wider cage and narrower chain.

Of course it's not advised to mix 10 and 11 speed parts, but it doesn't mean that it's not workable. 10 speed cranks aren't recommended either, but they usually work fine, even though the 10 speed teeth are about .1mm thicker.

A lot of users setup their 11 speed FDs with 4 clicks, just because it takes extra effort to dial in the limit screws and get just the right cable tension to use only 3 clicks. Using 4 clicks, just takes up cable tension that could be added with the barrel adjuster.

Some frames don't even have barrel adjusters on the frame. Without adding an inline adjuster, that makes getting the cable tension correct, particularly tricky. What I do is deliberately turn the low limit screw CW by 1/2 to 1 turn, pull the cable tight and then tighten the cable clamp. Return the limit screw it's proper position and with luck, you'll have the needed cable tension.


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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:58 pm 
  • 6.00 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 931 components by Campagnolo


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
The topic is mixing 10 speed FDs with 11 speed drivetrains. There are a couple different versions of 10 speed FDs, since some are QS compatible and others are pre-QS. The QS models will definitely require 4 clicks if used with the narrower 11 speed chain and I would expect that a 4-click setup may even be required with a 2009 or newer 10 speed FDs, due to both a wider cage and narrower chain.


All 10S FD share the same cage width and that's all that matters here. The only possible problem you could run into is when using a pre-QS era standard double only 10S FD on a 11S CT system.

Setting up a 11S or 10S FD for 4 clicks, or 3 for that matter, without having the stops adjusted correctly is just asking for trouble and will sooner or later lead to chain drops.
Allowing for a fourth click only makes the derrailleur move in smaller steps. The total amount of sweep will always be limited by, what else, the limit screws.

Quote:
A lot of users setup their 11 speed FDs with 4 clicks, just because it takes extra effort to dial in the limit screws and get just the right cable tension to use only 3 clicks. Using 4 clicks, just takes up cable tension that could be added with the barrel adjuster.


Well once you start playing outside of the ballpark anything's possible....
Point is however that when using a 10S FD within a 11S system you'd better make sure everything is set up as it should unless you don't mind the occasional chain drop..
For that, and that only, is the reason why the width of the FD cage was reduced.

Quote:
Some frames don't even have barrel adjusters on the frame. Without adding an inline adjuster, that makes getting the cable tension correct, particularly tricky. What I do is deliberately turn the low limit screw CW by 1/2 to 1 turn, pull the cable tight and then tighten the cable clamp. Return the limit screw it's proper position and with luck, you'll have the needed cable tension.


Sure, but that works for all derailleurs regardless of them being 10 or 11S. The higher the cable's pretension the more it's pulled away from the frame but the stop will still need to be set correctly with the cable in a relaxed state.

@thisisatest: They could be set up for 3 clicks but there was little point in doing so as the LH shifter lever wasn't moving 1:1 on the first step so it didn't make it much sense.

Ciao, ;)

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