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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Location: NL
I don't understand why H Plus Son increased the weight of the Archetype. 450g was close enough to actual weight of A23 and recent Open Pro, at 470g it gets into the dull region, sub-1500g becomes difficult with versatility and reliability in mind (e.g 24/28 with brass nipples). It's not that the 450g rims were unreliable?


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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:31 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Location: Ruidoso, NM
If they did in fact add 20g to the spoke bed, I'm sure there was a good reason. But random variations in rim weight of well in excess of 20g are not unusual.

I have two Archetypes and both weigh 475g. The average of 4 C2s is 458g. The average of 6 C472s is 494g... with one as high as 505g and one as light as 456g! Much bigger spread than usual for Kinlin.

Even though the Stan's 340 isn't so light anymore, it's still the best choice if weight is a high priority.

But I like the C472 for everything else even though it's heavy... because it is actually aero.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:54 am 
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WMW wrote:
Even though the Stan's 340 isn't so light anymore, it's still the best choice if weight is a high priority.

But I like the C472 for everything else even though it's heavy... because it is actually aero.


Okay WMW, you're only allowed one set of wheels and you're only allowed to chose between these rims, which would you go for?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Hey can you clarify what the quality issues with the TB14 were? Or put a link up? Not to hijack but I was looking into building that particular wheel up and found this thread kicking about.

neverwasbeen wrote:
Thanks Verycreative and Stradajon.

I had heard the finish of Archetypes was similar to the C2 - there was even one comment suggesting they may come from the same factory as the profile is exactly the same (except for said pointy bit), but who knows . . .

Counter to this, when the archetype first came out, there were mixed views on H + Son quality from a forum across the hall (including the highly respected Tristan from Wheelworks NZ).
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 26113.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 20318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So based on more recent views of Strada & Justin Spinelli - it would appear they have got it right with the Archetype and the quality concerns stated previously on the TB14 don't necessarily apply.

Given that, why would anyone go for the Hed C2 if the quality of the Archetype is just as good, weight comparable, looks better (IMHO) and the price far better?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Location: North Carolina
The c472w (XC279 - I had permission from the manufacturer to market it this way) has gained weight since I first started stocking them in February. I asked about this and was told that the current weight is the "correct" weight. I have not yet heard why the average seems to have gone up about 20g from the first batches or why there is such wide variation, although I'm not seeing many in the 460-470 range anymore.

WMW wrote:
If they did in fact add 20g to the spoke bed, I'm sure there was a good reason. But random variations in rim weight of well in excess of 20g are not unusual.

I have two Archetypes and both weigh 475g. The average of 4 C2s is 458g. The average of 6 C472s is 494g... with one as high as 505g and one as light as 456g! Much bigger spread than usual for Kinlin.

Even though the Stan's 340 isn't so light anymore, it's still the best choice if weight is a high priority.

But I like the C472 for everything else even though it's heavy... because it is actually aero.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Itsacar, a couple of quotes from the links I posted are below. Note that I have only copied the negative views, there were some positives as well. To give some balance / perspective, the comments are nearly 12 months old so h+son may have rectified the QA since then, the quality of their other rims seems top notch. Spinelli just did a build with them, so there is one respected builder still using them. This is just my research, not my direct experience - so take what you will from it:

[color=#0000FF]"I built a pair of the hard-ano a couple of weeks ago. The customer supplied them and I don't know what channel they came through. At 23mm wide and 511 / 512 grams they're pretty porky and I didn't find them easy to build which was a real surprise because they looked like an extremely well-made rim.

Certainly a cool product and I'm sure some people will crave them, but if function is your #1 then I'd choose something else."

"Built up a few at the shop and a few of the shop guys have been riding them. So far they've been sub-par. Lots of out of box issues, at even tension they are out of wack, when they are true and round the tension is off and after 50 mi or so they de-tension. It could be that we got a bad batch but personally im sticking with mavics for the time being."

"I've built up three sets and while I've not experienced detensioning, they did take some extra work to get round. They sure are nice looking, but as others have noted -- given the fact that they're some 80-90g heavier than something like an A23 (and seemingly less rigid) from a practical standpoint it's a tough sell. Most folks who've asked about them at work tend to be younger fixie types who've given up on finding NOS MA40s or equivalent. Neat idea though, glad they're around.[/color]"


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Thanks very much for that.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:27 am
Posts: 24
Location: BC, Canada
I've been looking at the rims previously discussed here and found one more option from Neuvation Cycling - an R28SLW (with 20 or 24 hole), it's 23mm wide and 25mm deep. The store confirmed the weight as 440g (which would be a nice drop of about 70g per set compared to the others listed) and the guys there said they could custom build with hubs supplied by me (thinking BHS SL85W and SL218) - which if combined with CX ray and alum nipples, would make for a nice light affordable package (I'm only 140lbs). I just can't find any reviews on these rims. Can anyone help - either generally regarding neuvation rims/wheels or specifically the R28SLW? If I have to gamble without finding any reviews - would it be smart to go Laser spokes on DS and nipple washers all around - just as a precaution to ensure some durability and stiffness (open to suggestions/ridicule). Apologies if I should be posting this under 2 different forums - this is my first post.
Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:01 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I prefer Race on the DS, to make the wheel a little stiffer. Leaving Lasers on the NDS is good for reliability- the thin spokes stretch more for the same tension and are thus less likely to detension as the rim flattens out or flexes.

Washers aren't needed on the NDS since the tension is low. And front spokes don't need the same tension as rear DS. So when I use them I use them on the DS only. Sometimes washers can keep the nipples from seating at the same angle as the spokes, so the spokes bend. It depends on the rim and washers and nipple shape.

You only need washers if the rim is thin and has a reputation for cracking or bulging at the eyelets under the tension (DS) you want to use.

I have a BS SL218 and it's a good hub for the price. Similar quality to the SL211 but slightly better flange spacing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:27 am
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Location: BC, Canada
Thanks Eric,
I actually meant to say Race on the DS. Do you think laser vs cx ray would make a difference on the NDS?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:37 pm
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The CX-Ray is really just a bladed laser, so you shouldn't see a difference between the two from a strength/reliability standpoint.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:37 am 
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verycreativeusername wrote:
Okay WMW, you're only allowed one set of wheels and you're only allowed to chose between these rims, which would you go for?


I built the C472s for myself a few weeks ago... if that is an answer.

I like aero. The extra weight isn't that much for the aero benefits... faster, plus lower crosswind susceptibility. The crosswinds benefit I've tested, but of course I can't "feel" the speed increase... it's just an educated guess that these would be a tenth of a mph or so faster than the Archetypes. And they feel super stable at high speeds, compared to my 1185g set with Stan's 340 rims. The 340s don't do anything weird, but the handling is noticeably lighter on those.

Just wish the C472s had come in 16h, so I could do 16f and 20r. I weigh 170 lbs and that would be plenty for me.

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