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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:05 am 
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So these arrived with me today along with a custom saddle cradle and rail clamps to swap out the heavy BMC one. I couldn't be more pleased with the result. :D

It'll be a little while before I get them swapped over as I'm going to do a rebuild of some of the parts on the bike, (cables, bar, stem, hopefully brakes and FD) so I'll do it all together and eventually post it up.

I'm really stoked with what Weeracerweenie has done here, bright, bright future!! :thumbup:

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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:05 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:55 am 
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dereksmalls wrote:
I own three pairs of the original pedals and have not experienced the rocking on any of them with 000s of kms on all pairs. I love their pedals.

In regards to the Roubaix version, Concept 64 already made an imitation of that and Coombes beat them all with their pedal which was even more minimalist.

Image
I owned a pair of these Coombe Pro Pedals since about '01. They were light, durable and most awesome! Its platform was stable as hell in an era when cycling shoes didn't have as stiff a soles as they do now. As Coombe went out of business unannounced, I could no longer procure cleats. I gave my friend my cleats and pedals, even though the pedals were still in tip-top shape.

Since about 2007, I switched over entirely to Zero Ti, the next best thing to Coombes. I like the adjustable float, but that lateral rocking many have noticed is definitely present, which I don't like it. Just enough to take it for what it is, I found no other pedals with such a low stack height and, to me, minimal pedal stack height and stance width is paramount. The lower and narrower my pedals, the better!

My gripe with Zeros is that clicking in is like balancing an ice skate on a golf ball with a spindle mounted onto a crank. A flat cleat on top of a the pedal body with a surface that essentially wants to make the cleat slide into any random direction of 360º isn't very stable. Even the cleat recess is angled, so it almost slides off the pedal when you try to clip in. It's almost like balancing Essentially, only the crescent spring retains the cleat and prevents it from release during the pull phase of the pedal stroke. To me, it's the Zero cleat entry and retention that are only just adequate. But what else is there that comes this close?

Sometimes, a rider needs to throw his (or her) entire body weight onto a single pedal just to make it clip in (hence the subsequent release of the light action variant), putting the rider in imbalance on his (or her) bike that potentially leads to accidents. I experienced this myself, and imagine others to find it less than desirable as well. Also, with 'PlaySpeed' I noticed my foot occasionally got violently launched off the pedal. Neither very safe nor confidence-inspiring. Pedals such as Shimano SPD-SL's, Look Keo's, Time iClics and even Keywins are more controllable indeed.

At least with Coombe pedals the cleat was guided and produced a much more solid feel. As you kick your foot forward onto the platform, the cleat gets its rear hook caught behind a ridge. After that, you effortlessly put your weight on your foot, twist your ankle and, with nominal force, the front cleat hook engages with the platform and secures the cleat onto the pedal. To release just reverse the action by twisting the ankle, and then there's masses of free float before complete release. To reach that, just lift your foot and voilá! I really liked that guided action during the kick-in phase.

It would be appreciated by many Coombe owners if someone could start making Coombe-compatible cleats. Maybe titanium ones? At least there'd be no patent infringement, since the patent expired, so now threats with lawsuits. Even better would be an entirely new pedal system that would rival, if not exceed Coombes'. And how about making that system a whole lot lighter? Like a sub-100g pair of ergonomically efficient pedals… :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:55 am 
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Can you post a cleat picture of the coombes? I dont see how hard it could be... I agree with most of what you say, the pedals on the market today cater for a wide range of riders, for people like us who know what we want, why is there no product for us... :noidea: I'd be happy to look at a coombes pedal and see if i can re create it and its cleats or even improve on its design...

Im liking the conversation on this thread, and the lack of legally threatening emails in my inbox. AWESOME :beerchug:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:48 pm 
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http://www.caloriesmadesimple.com/Coombe/

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:33 pm 
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What's the worry if you aren't infringing on any patent laws? If you are, this board (and a moderator) shouldn't be aiding and abetting that. If I were that company and this was in fact a patent infringement, I would go after this board as well for knowingly allowing it.

I'm all for tuning products, but this seems to go beyond that. If I'm wrong about the legal issues, carry on! Nice work.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:37 pm 
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I guess funny is not the word but why is it so many people want to adapt these pedals. You don't see this with Time etc. No wonder they get so upity.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:48 pm 
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The issue with the company in qestion isn't that thery go after people who viotae their patent, its that they go after people that try to sell anything that has to do with the product. For instance the pedals contain bearings that need to be replaced. They are of standard size and made by many companies, long before being used in the pedals. But try to sell a kit with just the necessary bearings in the classified, and mention the product name and you'll likely get a legal notice.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:44 pm 
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styrrell wrote:
They are of standard size and made by many companies, long before being used in the pedals. But try to sell a kit with just the necessary bearings in the classified, and mention the product name and you'll likely get a legal notice.


I understand the frustration in those situations. This however might be different. This looks like a copy of another product and I think it could infringe on a patent. I haven't done any research on it myself, but the OP should. If I were a moderator I would be a little more careful as well.

I could be wrong though.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39 pm 
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This not for sale recreation of a product, that was not made available for the consumer market, and is not for sale, was not made with any of the original pedals to start with and made completely with after market products that can be procured from several different companies quite easily yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:21 am 
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Im not selling these pedals, merely showing what i've done for a friend.

@mythical, hmmm that could be reasonably hard to re create, where do the seem to wear out the most? im not even sure how i would build them....

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:45 am 
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With the metal body you should be able to substitute a delrin bushing for the roller bearing without too much impact on durability, and use full ceramic bearings for the other two.

Doesn't the PeedSplay eXpedal patent expire soon?? I still prefer the eX to the ZRow model so it would be a relief to have some other options.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:19 am 
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weeracerweenie wrote:
First up, bit of background info... Im 18, from New Zealand, elite ish level racer and i like building and toying so this is what i've been up to recently... the thread is about tuning pedals from a certain company which can be figured out by reversing the words but should not be mentioned because that certain company is notorious for being unfriendly to people who genuinely enjoy their products

For obvious reasons i'm not going to quote the actual brand as serious legal action has been threatened against another user, if you haven't seen the thread have search. Since im only 18 i don't fancy being put through all that hub-ub. From here on in, my designs will be referred to as playspeeds, or 'pedals'

So i have been playing with pedal concepts for a while now, i have built a few of them, but when the offer of building some of these came up from fellow weenie 'Dereksmalls' i decided to give it a crack... NOTE: All parts used in my concepts are not from a certain company that looks like PlaySpeeds, they are all aftermarket products from an entirely different company. So essentially you don't need a set of PlaySpeeds to do a tune like this, all you needis the upgrade kit and your on your way. HOWEVER i do advise that you under take projects like this at your own risk, i take no responsibility for any work done by other people based on wok i have done. Henceforth, any tuned pedals from said company should be called PlaySpeed. and the obvious: tuning or modifying your products will certainly and most likely void any warranties or liability claims against the original manufacturer of your pedals and any tuning should be taken at your own calculated risk. No persons involved in the tuning of their products nor any ideas gleamed from this thread can be held as any guarantee of reliability. Tune at your own risk and be intelligent about your work

Dereksmalls sent down some Ward Ti upgrades (i think) for a standard set of chromoly 'pedals'. Ti Bolts, Bow Ties and Axles arrived in the post one day and i started drawing my concepts. I had seen this link (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pho ... aix/115486" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and thought the design was sound and i thought i could repeat it easily enough. So i went to the local bearing shop and found some new needle roller bearings for it. They are the exact same size as the standard ones, and the second bearing i put in was the standard roller bearing from the outside edge of the pedal. Easy.

Then i went to the school workshop and run out some bearing housing cylinders. This fit the bearing in each end (light press fit, 0.05mm under size) then in betweenthe two bearings in the dead space i recessed a slot into the housing... This is the same width as the bow tie centre so it slotted in nicely as planned. Then taking the bowties i milled a small half round section out of the very middle where it contacted the new bearing housing. I made sure the milled section in the bow tie was slightly smaller so it would have and in different radius and 'grip' onto the housing to prevent rotation under power.

Here is where i milled the half round out of the bow tie...
Image

My issue now was how to engage and dis engage the cleat. The originals have a small steel insert that is inserted into the bodies... like so:

Image

What i did how ever was taking a 1 1/8th inch headset spacer, i cut a small section that fitted the width of the bowties and then milled a small section similar in shape out of the top and bottom of the section of spacer. This essentially integrated the insert and the correct spacing of the bow ties. It functionally looked like it would work, but when i tried it the spacer would slip round when i un-clipped from the pedal. This is because the bolt alone wasn't enough to hold it in place. After weeks of testing (not joking) i pressed UD carbon in the gap between the bearing housing and the spacers. this works well, and only added 3 grams per pedal. :D

Here you can see where i milled off material from the spacer. Unfortunately the mill i used gets vandalised by the year 9's (first year of high school kids) so when i moved it along its x axis, it would move ever so slightly on the y axis creating a non smooth finish in the milled area :(

Image

Next i tuned the already light axles. I milled off the rounded face at the threaded end (that goes into your crank) into a square so it can be done up with a spanner. 15mm on the dot! I then borred into the centre, increasing the internal hole from 5mm to 7.5mm in diametre and from 20mm deep to 35mm deep. This alone dropped 7 grams per axle! This is easy stuff to do withthe right tools, but i managed to cook 5 drill bits since Titanium is darn hard...

Image

I the rebuilt the first pedal and presed in the carbon backing to the spacers and set to try and fault it. I atttached it to the drill and vice at home at spun the bearings it, checked it for trueness, and play. It passed fine so i moved on to re creating the second pedal. A week or three later i was done. Next came cleat work. I had to make sure after my modifications thatthe cleat engaged and dis engaged perfectly. The only issue was that i had to dremel a small section from each cleat. No issues.

Testing followed, a week or two of it, i put them on my Single Speed MTB (fully rigid, running a 48 - 16 gearing which is huge) as when i ride this bike, i go through a set of pedals every year, bottom bracket every three months etc. I abuse the hell out of this bike, but it got me a national title so it still works fine. Riding these pedals on this pig of a bike cleared in my mind that my idea had worked and would function, barring all disasters.

I then lathed up some end caps out of delrin and called the mission complete :beerchug:

The pedals started at 208 grams for a standard straight of the shelf pair. My pair ended up at 118 grams a pair. 90 GRAMS GONE! WOW, i am working on a concept for prototype 2that will drop them under 100 grams a pair, so stay tuned. I also build Aerolite Pedals that are tweaked to my preference, and altered slightly as well if anyone is interested.

Final Pedals DONE :beerchug:

Image

Image

I'm about to put them in a box and send them back to Dereksmalls for him to own, along with some other wee bits i have built him! What do you all think?

Hi weeracerweenie, very clever and novel :-)
It is highly unlikely that you are infringing on any patent, especially not a New Zealand patent :-)
One thing for certain is that this idea is now public and cannot be patented, so it is free for everyone to use :-)

If they were smart they should employ you :-)
I like it, keep up the good work :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:10 am 
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thank you Klabs! a job like that would be alot of fun! i can only dream... :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Hi weeracerweenie. Magnificent work. Congratulations. :up:

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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Location: Bali, Indonesia
@weeracerweenie,
Quote:
@mythical, hmmm that could be reasonably hard to re create, where do the seem to wear out the most? im not even sure how i would build them....

You'd need:
CNC milling machine, 1/2" center cutting endmill, 1/4" Carbide spiral flute end mill, 1\4" Ball nose end mill and a bunch of code.
The code is the difficult part;
If you have access to a cleat you can directly measure it and develop a drawing in Mastercam or some other CADCAM software.
If you don't, you could use accurately positioned photographs or scans, drop them into Rhinoworks as a bitmap background, then draw an outline with control points over top, export this file as a dxf then open it into CADCAM, clean up the geometry then use the software to create your code, send it to the mill and cut your part (you would need to also make some fixturing blocks).
You've shown that you have the analytical ability and technical saavy, I'm sure that you could get around building this stuff.

Best of Luck :thumbup: ,
monkeyburger

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