ENVE SES VS ZIPP VS HED + PowerTap

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new to weightweenies. I have been riding for half a year now, and am thinking about getting some wheel upgrades on my tarmac (now has factory DT r460 wheels). I have around 2k USD budget for this so I narrowed down my options to the following:
1. ENVE SES 4.5 with DT 240
2. Zipp 404 Firecrest
3. HED 4+ Black + PowerTap
Their prices are in descending order.

About myself, I have ridden around 4500km past half year since I started cycling. I dont race and I dont have a power meter yet. I cruise at 32-35km/h at 155-165bpm on flat with no wind and have 950-1000 VAM during 30 min 7%-8% climbs.

Would love to hear about everyone's experience with these wheelsets above, and any suggestions or recommendations will be appreciated.

PinaF8
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:05 am

by PinaF8

From my experience of Enve 4.5 SES carbon hubs. A bit on the soft side and will rub pads when sprinting. But, I did read somewhere here that if built right you won’t have any pad runs. Have you thought about Campagnolo Bora?
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by Weenie


fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

Thanks, I have researched bora ultras but their retail price on PBK seem to be 400-500 dollars above my budget, I might consider Bora Ones too. There are some tubular bora ultras for half the price but they appear to be 2015 versions and have narrow rim width.
Do you know if the same Enve flex problem happen to dt240 build too? I heard dt hubs will be easier to maintain too.


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spdntrxi
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

DT240s flex as well... but there is so much to flex ? sometimes you cannot blame the hubs alone.

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ergott
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by ergott

spdntrxi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:00 pm
DT240s flex as well... but there is so much to flex ? sometimes you cannot blame the hubs alone.
You can blame the hubs in this case. I've rebuilt Enve 4.5s to Wheels Mfg hubs and it's problem solved. DT and Enve (based on DT) hubs don't build into stiff rear wheels. It's because of their design. They have narrower bearing placement and the flanges are narrower than others too. A White Industries rear hub will also be a lot stiffer with it's steel axle and better flange/bearing spacing. The only thing DT is good for is they don't need adjusting.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

ergott wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:00 pm
DT240s flex as well... but there is so much to flex ? sometimes you cannot blame the hubs alone.
You can blame the hubs in this case. I've rebuilt Enve 4.5s to Wheels Mfg hubs and it's problem solved. DT and Enve (based on DT) hubs don't build into stiff rear wheels. It's because of their design. They have narrower bearing placement and the flanges are narrower than others too. A White Industries rear hub will also be a lot stiffer with it's steel axle and better flange/bearing spacing. The only thing DT is good for is they don't need adjusting.
I just went over the the Wheels Mfg site to have another look at the hubs and I can't find them on the site. Do you know if they have gone away?

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ergott
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by ergott

They are in a bit of flux right now. I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure they will be continued. That's why I also mention the WI. They also build up very stiff, but just with a bit of a weight penalty.

fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

What do everyone think about the Zipp 404s, for 1700usd are they worth it? Compared to 2000 enve 4.5?

I havent tried any carbon wheels yet. Im worried about delaminating rims and lack of braking power when doing descending. HED, Zipp and Enve seem to have good reputation. Dura ace are good but kinda of heavy for clinchers and their tubulars are too expensive.


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spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

1700 brand new might be ok for 404.. but used.. I think that is a little much, unless they are NSW's or something. I used a 404 given to me by a support car... I thought it felt dead to me.. really slow to accelerate but once up to speed ok. Not my favorite wheel, I do like the 808 on my TT bike.

HEDs are a bargain.. have AL braking with carbon fairing if you are worried about CC braking.

fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:52 am
1700 brand new might be ok for 404.. but used.. I think that is a little much, unless they are NSW's or something. I used a 404 given to me by a support car... I thought it felt dead to me.. really slow to accelerate but once up to speed ok. Not my favorite wheel, I do like the 808 on my TT bike.

HEDs are a bargain.. have AL braking with carbon fairing if you are worried about CC braking.
Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I can get a pair of brand new 404 FCs for 1700usd, or 2000 for new ses 4.5 via a friend. I think those are great deals but I kinda want to know everyone else's experience opion on those.

The HED 4+/HED 4+ black are really a bargain, do you have any experience riding them? How much better/worse are those compared to your 404s? Climbing, crosswind, flat etc.

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

FnS

in the HED world I used to have a jet6+ and disc + for my TT bike. Really no issues but I got a good deal on a Zipp Super9 disc and off'd my HED setup. The only HED's I have now are Ardennes Black (which are not deep) wonderful wheel actually, but I have too many wheelsets right now and mostly ride around on my Enve's and usually 2.2s.

fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 am
FnS

in the HED world I used to have a jet6+ and disc + for my TT bike. Really no issues but I got a good deal on a Zipp Super9 disc and off'd my HED setup. The only HED's I have now are Ardennes Black (which are not deep) wonderful wheel actually, but I have too many wheelsets right now and mostly ride around on my Enve's and usually 2.2s.
Thanks!

How much more performance/feel do you think the enves and zipps have over the jet6+. I understand TT bikes and normal road bikes might be different, but just want a perspective.

stormur
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Location: FIN

by stormur

Reverse question : how much performance you loose not choosing HED, but choosing Zipp/Enve ;)
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

spdntrxi
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

fluffandstuff wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 am
spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 am
FnS

in the HED world I used to have a jet6+ and disc + for my TT bike. Really no issues but I got a good deal on a Zipp Super9 disc and off'd my HED setup. The only HED's I have now are Ardennes Black (which are not deep) wonderful wheel actually, but I have too many wheelsets right now and mostly ride around on my Enve's and usually 2.2s.
Thanks!

How much more performance/feel do you think the enves and zipps have over the jet6+. I understand TT bikes and normal road bikes might be different, but just want a perspective.
all my fastest times are on Enves and Zipps.. Enve's on roadbike (fastest times with 6.7s) and TT bike (808/Super9) talking 20 seconds here but it is what it is. I will say the HED disc wheel I had is more comfy being built on a std al rim with a carbon cover. I could do training rides with HED...but generally wont with my Super9 disc.

I just got Enve 7.8s so I'm hoping to beat my time up this roughly 3mi climb near my house. I have been unable to beat my Enve 6.7 time with any of my other wheelsets, including my sub 1000g enve 2.2 tubs. Obviously my fitness level is up and down too (down right now)
Aero trumps weight unless you are doing sustained climbing and high gradients. This climb has a punchy 10-11% kicker in the middle which usually works me over if I go to hard in the beginning. I think the average gradient is 3%+

Honestly I dont think Jet6+ or 4s would be that far behind Enves or Zipp in the aero dept. I see HED go on sale on the time too and the braking is good.

fluffandstuff
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:15 am

by fluffandstuff

spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:41 pm
fluffandstuff wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 am
spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 am
FnS

in the HED world I used to have a jet6+ and disc + for my TT bike. Really no issues but I got a good deal on a Zipp Super9 disc and off'd my HED setup. The only HED's I have now are Ardennes Black (which are not deep) wonderful wheel actually, but I have too many wheelsets right now and mostly ride around on my Enve's and usually 2.2s.
Thanks!

How much more performance/feel do you think the enves and zipps have over the jet6+. I understand TT bikes and normal road bikes might be different, but just want a perspective.
all my fastest times are on Enves and Zipps.. Enve's on roadbike (fastest times with 6.7s) and TT bike (808/Super9) talking 20 seconds here but it is what it is. I will say the HED disc wheel I had is more comfy being built on a std al rim with a carbon cover. I could do training rides with HED...but generally wont with my Super9 disc.

I just got Enve 7.8s so I'm hoping to beat my time up this roughly 3mi climb near my house. I have been unable to beat my Enve 6.7 time with any of my other wheelsets, including my sub 1000g enve 2.2 tubs. Obviously my fitness level is up and down too (down right now)
Aero trumps weight unless you are doing sustained climbing and high gradients. This climb has a punchy 10-11% kicker in the middle which usually works me over if I go to hard in the beginning. I think the average gradient is 3%+

Honestly I dont think Jet6+ or 4s would be that far behind Enves or Zipp in the aero dept. I see HED go on sale on the time too and the braking is good.
Thanks, also since you have the zipps, enves and heds for quite sometime, could you comment on the durability/construction on those? Have not tried carbon wheels before and my alloy r460s are very sturdy in construction, would want to know how careful I need to be with those. My usually ride route involve a bit of roads that are not so nicely paved, so do not want to damage those expensive things after just 1 or 2 rides.

As for braking I do some 7-10% climbs during weekends, you mentioned the HEDs brakes well because of the alloy rims, are Zipps and Enve a lot worse in this dept? Thanks.

by Weenie


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