Ciamillo carbon crank now with pre-launch offer information!
Moderator: robbosmans
-
- Tinker, Taylor, Tart
- Posts: 2070
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:00 pm
- Location: Sydney, Aus.
The shaping of the aluminium near the guy's thumb indicates to me that there will be a cover of some description going over the tubing. I might be wrong, but it certainly looks that way.
I kind of hope not to be honest as the radical looks really appeal to me, but from a marketing / aesthetics perspective I think they'd need to cover the tubes up to make sales as I think it'd turn more people away than it would attract.
As an aside, from an aero perspective it's probably less aero than an R-SYS wheel...
If I am wrong I think the tube design will struggle to work visually with many bikes. In fact to my mind the only bikes it would work with are the Passoni / Legend / IF / English / other bikes that are part metal, part carbon.
I like it as a concept, and it's actually the kind of thing that I like enough to build a bike around. My biggest fear would be creaking and noise...
I kind of hope not to be honest as the radical looks really appeal to me, but from a marketing / aesthetics perspective I think they'd need to cover the tubes up to make sales as I think it'd turn more people away than it would attract.
As an aside, from an aero perspective it's probably less aero than an R-SYS wheel...
If I am wrong I think the tube design will struggle to work visually with many bikes. In fact to my mind the only bikes it would work with are the Passoni / Legend / IF / English / other bikes that are part metal, part carbon.
I like it as a concept, and it's actually the kind of thing that I like enough to build a bike around. My biggest fear would be creaking and noise...
- Mattias Hellöre
- in the industry
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
- Contact:
It seems it is actual version which will be delivered at the weight of 390 grams, so I will cancel my order immediately.
First of all, I dont like aluminium to carbon bonding as the glue bond cannot achieve same stiffness as carbon or aluminum. So the weak part is glue bond and how about corrosion?
Bonding a axle to crank is a thing, a completely different thing is incorporate 8-12 more joints with glue.
I liked the first version and my impression was Ted did a weight tuning on existent cranks than make a 180 degree turn and present a design change after money is laid.
There´s a lot of people who have different taste than me, they do love this design but not me.
That´s all.
I hope Ted can get this design floating and making development from there.
First of all, I dont like aluminium to carbon bonding as the glue bond cannot achieve same stiffness as carbon or aluminum. So the weak part is glue bond and how about corrosion?
Bonding a axle to crank is a thing, a completely different thing is incorporate 8-12 more joints with glue.
I liked the first version and my impression was Ted did a weight tuning on existent cranks than make a 180 degree turn and present a design change after money is laid.
There´s a lot of people who have different taste than me, they do love this design but not me.
That´s all.
I hope Ted can get this design floating and making development from there.
Experimental Prototype
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
-
- Posts: 742
- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm
I think the new design is a wonderful new departure from existing methods and looks, and I wish it well. I hope they are as successful as the first generation brakes, which I used for many years and for which I received excellent after-sales service.
The fundamental change however in the crank design, between first floating the design here, taking orders and then finalising is consistent with a company who are not clearly thinking through changes in a systematic market oriented way and appear to be coming to market without adequate testing, even of the underlying concept. Sadly it would appear that lessons from previous product development and launch here are not being learned.
The fundamental change however in the crank design, between first floating the design here, taking orders and then finalising is consistent with a company who are not clearly thinking through changes in a systematic market oriented way and appear to be coming to market without adequate testing, even of the underlying concept. Sadly it would appear that lessons from previous product development and launch here are not being learned.
ghisallo2003 wrote:I think the new design is a wonderful new departure from existing methods and looks, and I wish it well. I hope they are as successful as the first generation brakes, which I used for many years and for which I received excellent after-sales service.
The fundamental change however in the crank design, between first floating the design here, taking orders and then finalising is consistent with a company who are not clearly thinking through changes in a systematic market oriented way and appear to be coming to market without adequate testing, even of the underlying concept. Sadly it would appear that lessons from previous product development and launch here are not being learned.
+1
I agree to Ghisallo's views.
But the design just looks very "different" to what is already on the market.
@elviento: I think there is more detail into this design than you have pointed out within your post.
Do not know and a very vague thinking is that the alloy-carbon joints seem to be go-through joints with some tapered carbon heads
which I have marked below.
But the design just looks very "different" to what is already on the market.
@elviento: I think there is more detail into this design than you have pointed out within your post.
Do not know and a very vague thinking is that the alloy-carbon joints seem to be go-through joints with some tapered carbon heads
which I have marked below.
Kuota Kom Evo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD
- Mattias Hellöre
- in the industry
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
- Contact:
To clarify things:
I do respect Ted´s effort to make products with competitive pricing and performance.
I preordered my Ciamillo crankset, and own ZeroG brakes, they perform well in any weather here in middle of Sweden.
Anyway, here´s my thoughts.
Since the pedal is cantilevered out from the crank arm it acts with a shear force on the crank arm.
This means that the torsional integrity of the crank arm is crucial. In this design the glued ca/alu sleeved joint is taking all the shear force right into the bond. Alu / carbon bonds are notoriously prone to corrosion and just plain don't bond well together. This is why you will see Ti / Carbon or Carbon / Carbon bonds in top quality products.
Alu and carbon is just not a good combination in a structural joint with high shear forces. Any moisture or condensation will make it worse (think battery). The carbon needs to be insulated usually by reinforcing the resin with fiberglass.
Just to reduce the possibility to galvanic corrosion, that´s why I wrote just like battery above.
I do respect Ted´s effort to make products with competitive pricing and performance.
I preordered my Ciamillo crankset, and own ZeroG brakes, they perform well in any weather here in middle of Sweden.
Anyway, here´s my thoughts.
Since the pedal is cantilevered out from the crank arm it acts with a shear force on the crank arm.
This means that the torsional integrity of the crank arm is crucial. In this design the glued ca/alu sleeved joint is taking all the shear force right into the bond. Alu / carbon bonds are notoriously prone to corrosion and just plain don't bond well together. This is why you will see Ti / Carbon or Carbon / Carbon bonds in top quality products.
Alu and carbon is just not a good combination in a structural joint with high shear forces. Any moisture or condensation will make it worse (think battery). The carbon needs to be insulated usually by reinforcing the resin with fiberglass.
Just to reduce the possibility to galvanic corrosion, that´s why I wrote just like battery above.
Experimental Prototype
Thanks for pointing out the two outlets. I did notice that but since the tubes appear to be round-ish, I doubt it would be a simple press-fit arrangement, as you would then have to consider how to resist the twisting forces between different carbon rods. Afterall, carbon tubes don't always maintain the diameter that well under pressure (remember how a fork steerer expands after you screw in an expander plug?).
PS: agree with Matt's view above re shear forces.
PS: agree with Matt's view above re shear forces.
Fast falcons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3mTPEuFcWk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
www.falcobike.com
Facebook: falcobikeglobal
www.falcobike.com
Facebook: falcobikeglobal
Interesting concept, but pulling stunts like taking money from people to buy a product then offering them something totally different would not be acceptable in any other profession. Post 6 in this thread:
Good luck with getting something for your money, other than pain and broken promises.
mrfish wrote:Great, but perhaps they could focus on getting the customer service basics right (and fixing previously unfixed issues) before rolling out new product - lots of history here suggests that if anything goes wrong with the product it will not be plain sailing.
Good luck with getting something for your money, other than pain and broken promises.
Carbon fiber and aluminum are at opposite ends of the galvanic scale. Soon as moisture is present and it will be i.e wet/damp roads or living near a coast then galvanic corrosion will occur and this crank will bite the dust. I have had this happen on a frame with a alu seatpost, the whole frame was wrecked. This crank needs a rethink IMO .
Mattias Hellöre
Mattias Hellöre
-
- Tinker, Taylor, Tart
- Posts: 2070
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:00 pm
- Location: Sydney, Aus.
I know it looks like aluminium, but do we know it is? I realise it probably and most likely is, but I'm just curious...
BikeTart wrote:I know it looks like aluminium, but do we know it is?
This is exactly my thinking. Mathias' as well as some other comments are way too definitive for me.
We may wait for the pics Ted promised us.
Kuota Kom Evo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD
- Mattias Hellöre
- in the industry
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
- Contact:
Based on experience.
Aluminum - galvanic corrosion to carbon fiber is a very apparent problem.
Magnesium - the same applies here, even worser as slightest scratch on surface does let the Mg rot very quickly, likes to burn up your swarfs.
Titanium - too heavy and very hard to machine and requires stable machines and good tooling - not exactly cheap either.
Then you are running out of possibilities.
The only alternative is left here - Aluminum, I have hands on experience on aluminum in various constructions, I can say anodized aluminum is the worst possible material to bond on carbon fiber, the glue bond will release from the anodized surface faster than you eat up your Jell-O.
Aluminum - galvanic corrosion to carbon fiber is a very apparent problem.
Magnesium - the same applies here, even worser as slightest scratch on surface does let the Mg rot very quickly, likes to burn up your swarfs.
Titanium - too heavy and very hard to machine and requires stable machines and good tooling - not exactly cheap either.
Then you are running out of possibilities.
The only alternative is left here - Aluminum, I have hands on experience on aluminum in various constructions, I can say anodized aluminum is the worst possible material to bond on carbon fiber, the glue bond will release from the anodized surface faster than you eat up your Jell-O.
Experimental Prototype
This raises and interesting point about aluminum/carbon bonding methods. How is the bonding of aluminum spindles and pedal thread inserts different as seen on most carbon cranks? We also see aluminum mixed with carbon on many bicycle components. Please clarify how this is different.
Last edited by runner999 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
-
- Posts: 829
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am
I too have experienced issues with galvanic corrosion between carbon and aluminum. My System 6 is flaking apart at the joints.
My other thought on this design is what is to keep the crank arms from twisting? I could see that being a problem, though I am no engineer.
My other thought on this design is what is to keep the crank arms from twisting? I could see that being a problem, though I am no engineer.