Weight Weenies

metal wrote:I'd hazard a guess that if you wanted to, you could put a 11 speed cassette (but only say a 11-28) onto a 10 speed freehub, and providing the lockring engages ok, you could mount it up and run it.

This is given the fact that a 10 speed requires a 1mm spacer on the 10 speed freehubs, because there is sometimes an issue of the derailleur hitting the spokes (with say an 21 or 23 top cog).

You would be be out by 0.8mm overall... Not much really, and providing your not running a 12-23 (biggest small cog being 12, and smallest big cog being 23 in 9000 cassettes), you will be able to use the lowest gear without it interfering with the spokes, and highest gear without interfering with the seatstay.

I'd love to get a 11-28 9000 cassette and try it, but i'm still paying off the wheels.

Anyone with a 11-25, or 11-28 9000 cluster want to try it for me

Isn't it 2.8 mm that the cassette is wider ? (The drawing above shows an extra freehubs body of 1.8, but you need to add 1 mm as the spacer won't be installed with the 9000 cassette

So less the 1 mm spacer it would be 1.8 mm that the smallest cog and lockring will be closer to the right hand dropout

Presuming that you can get the lockring to bite and hold the cassette in place, just cast an eye on your current set up and you will probably come to the conclusion that it fits when static but most probably not when shifting back and forth

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The 9000 cassette is 1.8mm wider, or 39.4mm.

The dt hub graphic is a 11 speed to 'Classic Shimano 10 Speed' comparison. Not specifically a freehub built 'only' for a 10 speed cluster.



All 9/10 speed generic hubs (except maybe some specific 78xx/79xx or similiar ultegra wheelsets) have a hub spline that indeed does measure 35mm or thereabouts.

This is to cater for the possibility of using a 9 speed cluster on the freehub.

In the instance of a 9 speed cluster being used, no spacer is used. There is also no 'overhang' of the biggest cog over into the spokes area. The cluster is 36.5mm long, and fits perfectly onto the 35mm freehub. Spoke rubbing should not be an issue, as the biggest cog is not 'set back' towards the drive side spokes.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

In a 10 speed cluster, the cluster is actually 37.2mm long, however it has the 'overhang' of the biggest cog over into the spoke area. How long is this overhang? Well, pretty much every wheelset with the common 8/9/10 speed freehub length of 35mm requires (on almost all hubsets bar a few with more inboard spoke ends, or touch shorter freehub bodies) a 1mm spacer, this takes the cluster length to 38.2mm.

So 'if' the clusters overall inner dimensions needed to put the lockring in the same place, and do up the same way, at the same distance to the freehub is the same between the 9 speed configuration, and the 10 speed with 1mm spacer, the overhang can be calculated at 1.7mm, by assuming the non overhang length is the same as a 9 speed cluster of 36.5mm, and allows use of biggest sprocket without the derailleur without spoke touch. (38.2-1.7=36.5mm)

Now lets take a 11 speed cluster. Reportedly the cogs are 1.6mm, the same as 10 speed cogs. The spacer between cogs is 2.18mm (via shimano tech docs). This gives a cluster width of 39.4 (which i've noted elsewhere as being accurate, but can't find the link :/ ).

If the overhang is theoretically identical to a 10 speed cassette i.e. 2.7 without a spacer, and 1.7 with, then the possible 'inside dimensions that are the same as a 9 speed cluster' are either

39.4-2.7=36.7mm or
39.4-1.7=37.7mm

Obviously 37.7 is +1.2mm on the desired 36.5mm '9 speed dimension'.

But, the first one, without the spacer is 36.7mm, and is only 0.2mm more...

The real question then becomes which biggest cog, with associated 9000 rear derailleaur, is required to avoid the rear derailleur hitting the drive side spokes.

I'd love to try a 11-25 or 11-28, but I reckon 11-23 will definately not work, and 11-25 probably won't either. But 11-28... now there is a possibility that the combination of b tension screw, chainlength taking up alot of the derailleurs slack, and distance of the radius of a 28 tooth cog from the centre of hub, could effectively put it out of reach of the driveside spokes by the derailleur...

But how about instead of using no spacer, or a 1mm spacer, we try a .5mm spacer? Maybe that gets 11-28 working perfectly, and maybe 11-25 as well? Puts the small cog approximately .7mm closer to the seatstay, but maybe that is still within tolerances?

Anyone here planning to upgrade their 2012 rear zipp wheel? Might be worth a shot to avoid a costly conversion.


Anyway, of course there are lots of assumptions in the above theory, most of which are spot on I believe. However, maybe it will work? Never know

I just want to point out that Campagnolo made the largest cog a bit concave or offset the base
so the cog center are a bit further out closer to the spoke.
Which is why some 10sp wheel is not working without modifying the cassette. (DT, Bontrager etc)
or the spoke bend will hit the cassette spider.
In other words the Campa 11 cassette is wider the body isn't. (That I'm aware of.)
Not sure if Shimano has done the same or the largest cog is flat on the outer face.

Shimano did that with 10sp.

Lazy question... Will the G3 powertap freehub be 11speed shimano compatible?

http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/

Here's an informative rundown on wheel compatibility & changes required for Shimano 11sp.

^Glory cycles state that fulcrum wheelsets will only require a freehub change (no re-dishing). Can we assume the same for campy wheelsets?

Im thinking of geting some bora's to go with a 9000group. Campy mixed with Shimano, Blasphemy right?

Boyd Cycling - 2012 and below models will have an aftermarket freehub body produced (early 2013). A slight redishing will be needed. 2013 wheels have a unique system for 11 speed. Rather than penalizing people who are still running 10 speed by limiting their wheel stiffness, there will be a different system for 10 and 11 speed hubs (that uses the same hub for both systems). For 10 speed, a standard 130mm axle will allow the drive side flange width to be optimized. By upgrading to 11 speed, their is no longer clearance for this wide flange spacing so the 11 speed hub will have a longer freehub body, 131mm axle, and a different drive side end cap. This will allow the center to right flange spacing to stay optimized and keep a stiff wheelset. Wheels will need to be redished to go from 10 speed to 11 speed.

I got lost on Glory Cycle's explanation of the boyd wheelset. What does he mean by 10 speeds being limited by wheel stiffness and that boyds optimizes the 11 speed right flange spacing to stay optimized?

^Perhaps the wheel could flex to a point that the RD contacts the spokes (big NO NO)

vwo05 wrote:

Boyd Cycling - 2012 and below models will have an aftermarket freehub body produced (early 2013). A slight redishing will be needed. 2013 wheels have a unique system for 11 speed. Rather than penalizing people who are still running 10 speed by limiting their wheel stiffness, there will be a different system for 10 and 11 speed hubs (that uses the same hub for both systems). For 10 speed, a standard 130mm axle will allow the drive side flange width to be optimized. By upgrading to 11 speed, their is no longer clearance for this wide flange spacing so the 11 speed hub will have a longer freehub body, 131mm axle, and a different drive side end cap. This will allow the center to right flange spacing to stay optimized and keep a stiff wheelset. Wheels will need to be redished to go from 10 speed to 11 speed.

I got lost on Glory Cycle's explanation of the boyd wheelset. What does he mean by 10 speeds being limited by wheel stiffness and that boyds optimizes the 11 speed right flange spacing to stay optimized?

Basically, if you have 10 speed you don't want to ride a hub that was designed for 11 speed freehub bodies. The new Shimano freehub body is a lot longer and this means that your center to right flange measurement will not be as wide (wide flange spacing makes for a stiffer wheel). If you are running an 11 speed freehub body you will need to run a fairly large spacer behind your ten speed cassette.
So, what we are doing is making the 11 speed version with a whole new axle (131mm) and freehub body. This is allowing our center to right flange spacing for 11 speed still to be 17.0mm (about as far as you can go thanks to the longer axle length). For people who still have 10 speed the center to right measurement will be 18.5mm because the freehub body is not as long. If we just made one version the people who still had ten speed wouldn't have as stiff a wheel.

That's on our new 2013 hubs, for the previous versions of the hubs there will just be an aftermarket freehub body offered.

Thank you Boyd! Your explanation made perfect sense!

Digging up a slightly older thread as I failed to pull any answer from a few searches:

So I got some 404s with the 182 rear hub. I tried a new 9000 cassette and it appears the last cog could engage if the body was 1mm longer.

I understand the 9000 cassette is 1.8mm taller but to save this cassette body from obsolescence, I am considering filing down about 1mm of material off the base of the freehub body, ie, at those little "steps".

Based on a rough look, filing off 1mm will bring the chain a bit closer to the spokes but probably not THAT close.

Am i completely crazy?

To Ghost234 PowerTap have 11spd freehub bodies . Although you will probably need to redish wheel ever so slightly. PowerTap hubs in early spring will ship with an 11 spd freehub body.

elviento wrote:Am i completely crazy?

Crazy like a FOX!

Just watch out for the chain clearance as you mentioned....and of course the derailleur when you shift to the last cog on the cassette. Let us know what happens.

Does anyone know if the BOYD wheels use the Novatec hubs?

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