Wide rim technology Velocity A23, HED, Zipp 101

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Praha19300
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by Praha19300

with Velocity launching their A23 rim for custom builds , I had a look at the this wide rim technology , with HED non-existent here Downunder I didn't realise they were big in this field and now Zipp introducing the 101 , I'm wondering if there is something in this technology?
Any issues with tyres holding the rim , they advise lower pressures but can you run the tyres at higher pressures for heftier riders?
any good for crits or is this road/ century specific?

by Weenie


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cwdzoot
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by cwdzoot

I have been using it for 3 years (American classic hurricane) and recently a pair of the heds. Never had any issue and I have used Michelin, conti, Hutchinson and vred forteza.

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dee
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by dee

Agree. i raced all last season on Stinger 6's with Vittoria PAVE CG's 24mm. Simply the best riding and cornering wheelset/tire combo i've ever experienced and I've been racing for over 20 years. The tire lays real low in the rim, can't even see any base tape. Kind of like a low profile tire on a touring car. If you're interested I can help you get HED wheels down under.

koebes
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by koebes

Are there any windtunnel data on the Zipp 101?
If there are aero-advantages over other wheels like Ksyrium they are probably not worth an extra 800Euro :noidea:
Or am I misinformed that the Zipp 101 retail price is 1500 Euro?

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cwdzoot
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by cwdzoot

The new zipp 101 will retail in the US for $1300 and the SRAM S30 with almost the same rim will be $1000
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ras11
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by ras11

koebes wrote:Are there any windtunnel data on the Zipp 101?


Yes. http://www.zipp.com/_media/pdfs/catalog ... atalog.pdf

I think you will find the Zipp 101s 23mm tire are about 2/3rds the aero gains as a set of HED H3s. I find that impressive, but one has to put this in perspective.

Wider rims have been around a very long time. Nothing special there. When you put an aero fairing behind/front of it, 23mm tires perform much better, and realistically 23mm tires are simply more comfortable than 19/20mm tires. But, that assumes you have an aero shaped rim. If you look at the HED Ardennes, the shape is far from aero. Might as well get some touring rims! The Zipp and maybe Sram rims seem to be the first aero alloy clinchers (for 23mm tires). One could argue that any old 30mm alloy rim would be equally aero with a very narrow tire.
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shadwell
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by shadwell

HED are available down under look up HED Australia on the net. Your LBS will be able to sell them too you via HED AUS. Prices may warrant looking to the US for direct supply with the current exchange rate (support AUS if possible).

Re performance I compare to:-
30mm deep aero alu, 19mm wide rim (aero by description not perfomance).
Mavic Kysiriums Elites.
All on 23mm tyres (Continental GP4000s in case it matters).

Both Stnd's role slower at the hub (FYI only), the HED Sonic hub is very good.
By and order of approx 1.5 for the mavics, 30mm rims had "Zero" sealded bearing hubs FYI.

Both stnd. wheels caught cross winds more than HED's noticeably, 30mm due to the rim and the mavics due to the fat flat spokes.

Both stnd. wheels ran at 110psi for my 75 - 77kgs on mixed roads, (some poor rough mix).
This gave a relatively hard ride and lacklustre grip & road holding on the rough surfaces.

The HED's "feel" equally hard at 100psi actual (by nature of the larger air volume).
Hence I run them at 95psi. At these pressures they role a lot smoother, hold the road an grip better and are firm enough to accelerate and turn equally well as the higher pressure stnd. rims.

By way of a comparison i ran my stnd rims at 95psi too and the deflection was noticeable and they felt "soft". I didn't get a pinch puncture but i wasn't comfortable to have them moving around that much particularly under brakes down hil off camber hairpins.

Comparison aside the HED's role exceptioanlly well on the road, regularly gapping riders of simailr mass on down hill role outs etc (obviously a combination of lower rolling resistance, spokes (cx-ray) and rim to tyre profile. (which is more aero than stnd as it gives a smoother path from the tyre to the rim... ).

So all in all, the wide rims do what the manufacturers say, it is a real world better package in my opinion. As such I higly recommend them.

I think you'll be very pleased with them too coming from something like Mavic Kysirium. etc.

NGMN
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by NGMN

ras11 wrote:
koebes wrote:Are there any windtunnel data on the Zipp 101?




I think you will find the Zipp 101s 23mm tire are about 2/3rds the aero gains as a set of HED H3s



Can you say "grain of salt". I do think there is something to the wider rims being more aero with wider tires, but I also know Zipp has notoriously found the Hed 3 to perform way worse than any other company.

Any who, anyone know how many holes the Velocity A23 will be available in?

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by rruff

shadwell wrote:So all in all, the wide rims do what the manufacturers say, it is a real world better package in my opinion.


I've yet to hear a rational argument or see any data that would indicate that Hed's claims make sense. No better Crr, handling, pinch flat resistance, or aerodynamics. Maybe the Zipps will have better aero (compared to a narrower rim that is 30mm deep) since they are at least deep enough to have a decent profile.

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Arky
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by Arky

Aero: The argument for aero dynamics is the clean transition from 23mm tire to rim. You can have it with narrower rims, but you will have to run 21mm. Since no one normally rides 21mm tires and everyone rides 23mm tires, a wider rim is more aerodynamic for everyone.

Rolling resistance: In a tire/wheel system, deformation of the tire causes rolling resistance. For a given weight of rider and pressure, you will have a specific contact patch. If it is a skinny rim, the contact patch may be more deformed. In a wider rim, the tire will have to deform less to achieve the same contact patch and can do so with less pressure.

Comfort: Due to less pressure required for the same contact patch, you have greater comfort.

Pinch flat: As the ground approaches the rim when the tire is compressed, you essentially end up with a much larger contact patch to resist a pinch flat. It takes less force to push a skinny piston with the same pressure behind it than a fat piston. If you look at contact patch like a piston, the same probably holds true here, even if you start with 5-10 psi less on the fat vs the skinny.

EDIT: Corrected some brain farts. 23c should be 23mm, etc.
Last edited by Arky on Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cyclist in the Sun
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by Cyclist in the Sun

Veloflex tires aren't available in a 23c width and a lot of people use them.

"Everyone" doesn't ride 23c tires. To suggest so is not correct and doesn't help your case presentation.

Personally, I'm on Vittoria 24c Pave or I'm on Veloflex 20-22c (Servizio Corse or Pave). Otherwise it's 21mm tubulars or 24mm Pave. If I'm on the Pave, I'm not looking for aerodynamics, just a pillowy ride.
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Praha19300
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by Praha19300

20-24-28-32-36 hole choice in the A23 rims 19.5mm depth. Black with machined sides.

ausdb
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by ausdb

Are the A23's available for sale anywehere yet?
Confused wheelbuilder and bodger from downunder

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Arky
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by Arky

I knew some little detail would be nitpicked. Most road riders use 23mm tires (Clincher!). Can we not agree with that? Now, I know that manufacturers make 21mm tires for something other than throwing them in the trash.

Corrected argument courtesy of Cyclist in the Sun:
- Most people ride 23mm when they ride clinchers.
- 23mm clinchers are more aerodynamic with a wider rim than ones made for 21mm.
- Therefore, most people would be more aerodynamic with wider rims.

These rims with 24mm pave would make you faster and you could still have your pillowy ride. If you don't want to be faster when you ride clinchers, fine. Some want to be faster on clinchers.

by Weenie


NGMN
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by NGMN

ausdb wrote:Are the A23's available for sale anywehere yet?


The US blog for Velocity says rims and wheelsets around the end of the year.

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