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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:52 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
The chain dergreasing or no degreasing is one that has almost a religious following. Given we cannot do proper exhaustive tests at home to see how chain life varies our evidence ends up being a belief based on various thing. I am in the never degrease camp/cult while others are in the degrease camp/cult. One day each cult will have a Pope/arch bishop/Imam.... and we will all make pilgramages to our respetive centres of religous devotion. The never degrease branch will probably visit the grave of Sheldon Brown as he was an advocate of that.

The same goes for the chain wear measurements. My own prefered way is the Park tool gaugue for a quick look. If that throws up >0.75% wear then I measure with a 12" rule to decide if it needs changing or not. With Campag chains they specify using a caliper and that probably will result in a early change but in all these things you have to weigh up how much your chain cost compared to your cassette/chainring/pulley wheels. For some drive trains it may be cost effective to leave the chain one and accept the big bill when slipping arises. For other changing the chain earlier can save money. For me it is certainly cost effective to leave the chain on until problems arise and then change everthing that's worn at once.

Of course the 12" rule sect will meet some of chain checker sect at Sheldon brown's grave/temple and no doubt tempers will flare and one camp will be kicked out. Sheldon brown's site/bible will then be edited to reflect winning sides views. As I use both methods I will not be welcome anywhere.

It's only a chain I think we need to keep that in mind when debating who's right. Probably no one is but I will stick to not degreasing until I see some hard evidence to the contrary.

Personally Madmole sums it for me. I also use Rock n roll lube as it has a cleaning effect. If are going to degrease then use a oil based solvent like diesel e.t.c is probably preferable but I have better things to with my spare time than making a chain spotless.

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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:52 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Posts: 2527
Common sense rules. The chain is nothing but a collection of parts with large clearances between them and no seals to prevent the intrusion of road grit. The grit most often contains a lot of silica, that is a great abrasive. It makes no sense to leave gritty lube inside the chain, when it can easily be removed and the fresh lube applied. Because there are no close fits between the chain parts, getting the dirt out or lubricant in should never be a problem, other than in someone's imagination.

The factory lube is a grease-like Gleitmo product that must be heated to become a liquid and the chain dipped into it. It needs to be wiped off the exterior of the chain to reduce dirt attraction. That greasy lube will last for awhile, but it shouldn't take more than a few hundred miles for the lube to be thoroughly contaminated with grit.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

A chain is nothing more than a number of roller bearings linked together with plates on both sides of the bearing.

Does anyone see any cult or religion necessary to view it in any other way? I don't so I treat it the same way as any other roller bearing that's exposed to the elements.

Quote:
I am in the never degrease camp/cult while others are in the degrease camp/cult.


No you're not:

Quote:
I also use Rock n roll lube as it has a cleaning effect.


Quote:
but I will stick to not degreasing until I see some hard evidence to the contrary.


As said before, the hard evidence will be staring you in the face once you actually clean that chain. Thoroughly that is.... :mrgreen:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:15 pm 
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in the industry

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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
That's what I mean, just seeing what comes out and I have by the way is not evidence that it needs to be stripped clean. It's evidence there is crap in it. Seeing that dirt you can logically conclude that chain life will be longer than if the chain is not cleaned but that is different from it actually being so. Hense it is a matter of belief. I hope you see that point. Until someone has conducted a test to show that degreasing (in the way described here) extends chain life no one can know for sure. There are plenty of things in this world that logically would seem to be one way but when tested seem to be another.

When I see the hard evidence I will change my chain hygine habbits. Until then I see no reason. I don't consider using rock n roll lube de greasing as the chain is far from degreased afterwards. Degreasing to me involves removing the chain and properly stripping it of everything then relubing. It that level of effort I one appauld but cannot see any hard evidence on whether it improves chain life.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Hi,

Would you pour a handful of sand into your car's engine? Guess not.
Running a dirty chain amounts to the exact same thing though.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:22 am 
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Similar cleaning and general maintenance procedures as per DaveS here after every ride longer than roughly 30km generally.


Holy Dooly! You must be riding through sea water to justify a regimen like that. You don't mean 300km do you?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:33 am 
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Would you pour a handful of sand into your car's engine? Guess not.
Running a dirty chain amounts to the exact same thing though.

Ciao, ;)


it's not always so clear. i wouldnt pour a handful of sand into my car's engine, but i would also never, ever, get a transmission flushed. all it tends to do is make a perfectly functioning automatic transmission stop functioning. another analogy is bleeding hydraulic brakes. you dont run any type of cleaner through it- you push brake fluid through, removing the contaminating fluid and some contaminants.
funny, the religions statement. i almost made the same statement when this thread started. deleted it, for whatever reason, but the point still stands. similar issue: do you turn off your computer/server every evening or let it idle all the time?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:11 am 
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I can address all of your comments since I was an auto tech previously and now work in IT.

I agree a transmission flush is not necessary but changing the fluid does the job for you since transmission fluid has a cleaning affect all it's own. Never hear of pouring it in an engine to clean out all the carbon from valves and pistons. It works and was an old school way of doing it.

Again, brake fluid is actuall pretty potent stuff being primarily a petroleum and alcohol combination. As you know alcohol is a great cleaner. In fact brake fluid can remove paint. No need to run a cleaner through the brake system. Brake fluid itself should be replaced every 2 years due to evaporation of the alcohol and thus a thickening of the fluid. As well alcohol attracts water and thus contaminates the fluid. Never changing the fluid you will eventually find rust inside the hydraulic system.

Neither of these relate to the discussion here since we are talking cleaning out contaminants to reduce wear in a metal to metal scenario. The right answer is clean the chain because the often contaminant is sand and sand is abrasive. The reality is chains are a wear item so realistically who cares. Keep in mind they are called rollers because the should be able to roll between the endlinks. If they cannot due to contamination inside the rollers like sand then the rollers will not rotate and therefore constantly contact the chainring or cogs in the same effective area repeatedly. That will certainly wear a chain more quickly.

And last but not least, Never turn off a computer with spindle hard drives. It is the spin up from a dead stop that causes the most wear in the hard drive. In addition a spinning drive created an air space to the heads of the drive which prevents damage to the platters. If you are using sollid state disk then it doesn't really matter much.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:22 am 
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If anyone thinks people are rational creatures there are a few examples here to disabuse them of that notion; a lot of passionate advocacy of a particular point of view with no real experience of the other and no knowledge of any properly done comparative test. Yes, it is just like religion :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

thisisatest wrote:
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Would you pour a handful of sand into your car's engine? Guess not.
Running a dirty chain amounts to the exact same thing though.

Ciao, ;)


it's not always so clear. i wouldnt pour a handful of sand into my car's engine, but i would also never, ever, get a transmission flushed. all it tends to do is make a perfectly functioning automatic transmission stop functioning. another analogy is bleeding hydraulic brakes. you dont run any type of cleaner through it- you push brake fluid through, removing the contaminating fluid and some contaminants.
funny, the religions statement. i almost made the same statement when this thread started. deleted it, for whatever reason, but the point still stands. similar issue: do you turn off your computer/server every evening or let it idle all the time?


In this particular case it is that clear. Sand and dirt particles cause damage to moving parts, it really is that simple.

IOW would you not clean out dirty bearings to avoid further damage? If so then why not do the same when it's a chain? After all, as said before, it's nothing more than a series of linked bearings.

@timzcat: HDD tech has evolved quite a lot over the past ten years....

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Location: Drenthe, Holland
on the chain cleaning part. Here is an item that I really like:

http://youtu.be/riSXlJxIJCs

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1955
Location: NoVA/DC
As has been said, like religions.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:35 am
Posts: 5010
Location: New York
To properly clean a chain and make it come out new:

1. Take chain off
2. Place chain in empty 2 liter coke bottle and fill with favorite DE-greaser solution.
3. Shake well and let stand 15 minutes.
4. Shake well
5. Take chain out and wash with mild soap and warm water.
6. Spray chain with garden hose to rise thoroughly.
7. Place chain in toaster oven or oven at 250 until dry (20 minutes).
8. Let chain cool
9. Lube chain with favorite lube.

Chain with be good as new.

I do this when you feel the chain deserves such treatment. :lol:

Here is the link to it

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16034&hilit=chain

Testimonials (only one but they were happy with the results):

salesguy

I needed to clean some chains anyway, so I tried the above and it worked great! I used some old drink bottles with solvent, soapy water, etc and the whole process was quite easy and not messy. My wife awoke to chains cooking at 250 on convection bake. I have to admit my chain is cleaner that it ever has been!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Posts: 91
bm0p700f wrote:
Degreasing to me involves removing the chain and properly stripping it of everything then relubing. It that level of effort I one appauld but cannot see any hard evidence on whether it improves chain life.


I have no definitive proof, but I do believe that thoroughly cleaning/degreasing the chain periodically will extend its live. However, I also believe it to be false economy. The value of the time and effort to properly clean and degrease the chain multiple times over its life surely is greater than the value of the extended life of the chain - let's face it, chains are regularly replaced service items, and their not that expensive (compared to many other bicycle components). If the time I have to spend cleaning and degreasing the chain over its life is equal to the increased useable service time for the chain, then its a zero sum game.


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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5778
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Do you actually get paid to ride a bike as well? :mrgreen:

:arrow:

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