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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:49 am
Posts: 46
Hello,

I am looking into purchasing a more aero pair of tubular race wheels for the next few seasons. (I currently have a pair of DV46 UL)

As a small guy (123lbs), stable handling is also a priority, and both Zipp and Enve claim their respective wheelsets have stable handling characteristics, though Zipp seems to back their claim up with a little more objectivity.

Any input is appreciated. :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:39 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
What races do you plan to use them in? Wheels for specific races or just all-round racing wheels?

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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:39 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:04 am 
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Though I can't comment on the ENVEs as I haven't ridden them, I have about a season on my Zipp 606 firecrest and they're nothing short of fantastic. That being said, I do like the hub variety with ENVE, though the zipp hubs are pretty awesome. (150lbs and occasionally have to fight the wheels, but only in BIG gusts)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Location: Islip, NY
I can tell you first hand that the 6.7s behave very well in windy conditions. I've been out in 20-30mph wind/gusts from all directions. There is a push, but there's nothing sudden about it. It just feels like there are no surprises.

For comparison, I've owned, Reynolds 46 and 66mm wheels, Enve 38mm and 65mm wheels, and Zipp 303 and 404s over the years.

I'm getting 8.9s for this season to test.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Location: nyc
One has black stickers, the other has white ones.

Far as I can tell biggest difference is in construction, Enve having their famous co-molded spoke holes instead of drilled holes so maybe Enve are stronger. Both I believe are offered as rims that can be built up with whatever hubs you choose (check wheelbuilder.com, zencyclery et all) and seems the overall aero designs are very similar, Enve using 2 slightly different widths and depths for front and rear and Zipp using the same. I too am trying to decide between 6.7/404 FC or 404 FC Clinchers, might wait it out and see if Enve issue a clincher and if everyone is able to cut a few hundred grams off the wheelsets maybe by next year. At which point its possible Madfibers will be perfected as well so too many goodies to choose from, might have to buy one of each! shh don't tell the girlfriend...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Location: Islip, NY
gitsome wrote:
might wait it out and see if Enve issue a clincher


Not too much longer. Expect rims to be out there this summer.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:36 pm 
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hansonator69 wrote:
What races do you plan to use them in? Wheels for specific races or just all-round racing wheels?

RRs and crits. I'm in the midwestern US though so it's mostly flat maybe with some small hills. Looking for an all-around set for that.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:15 pm 
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there's also internal vs external nipples to think about if you're going tubular, which was one of the reasons why I went Zipp vs Enve


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:20 am
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland
According to the UK importer of ENVE the new clinchers should actually be faster in terms of the aerodynamics than the tubs due to the shape of the tyre. He didn't have anything to back that up though, so may be talking bollocks to try to get me to sign up as a stockist. Looking forward to getting a set in for a test ride though!

If it were my choice, I would wait for the clincher ENVE's, but I prefer the ease of use with clinchers and I'm not a big fan of Zipp's hubs as I've had some problems with them over the years.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:22 pm 
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To me it's a coin toss. Enve are much more regarded at this particular forum. I'd probably go for whatever I could get at a lower cost. I do know that with the 65s custom wheelbuilders were often doing better deals than what complete wheel prices were listed; I don't know if the same is true for the 6.7s.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:45 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
luckysix wrote:
hansonator69 wrote:
What races do you plan to use them in? Wheels for specific races or just all-round racing wheels?

RRs and crits. I'm in the midwestern US though so it's mostly flat maybe with some small hills. Looking for an all-around set for that.

The 404/808 Firecrest combo or Enve 6.7 shouldn't be a problem. I'm around the same weight and riding the pre Firecrest 404 front/808 rear wasn't as bad as I thought it would be in a 20kmh crosswind.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:51 am 
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Location: NoVA/DC
id go for the zipps. heres why:
enve preaches the linear relationship between side wind force and steering force. the actual steering force exerted on a zipp wheel is lower than with an enve wheel. with a zipp wheel, beyond a certain wind speed/yaw angle, the force drops off, which enve says is unpredictable. but that is also what happens with a classic box-section rim, so IMO, even if it's not LINEAR, it's not unpredictable. and it's lower.
internal nipples on tubulars blows. hell, internal nipples on clinchers is bad enough.
i dont believe molded spoke holes are better. carbon fibers dont work well with bends in them, especially along the load path. i have a feeling that enves molded spoke holes and internal nipples have to go together. i have a feeling that they cant easily go with molded spoke holes if the holes are big enough for nipples. it could be too much bending, too much distortion. just my theory, of course.
if going with enve's specified hubs (dt), i prefer the zipp hubs. they have much less resistance (even vs the 190), better spoke bracing angle, bearings support the axle better, and lighter.
and the firecrest wheels in general have been super reliable, super tough. hundreds have come through the doors. i cant say that the enve 6.7 havent been, not enough have come by.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:23 am 
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thisisatest wrote:
id go for the zipps. heres why:
enve preaches the linear relationship between side wind force and steering force. the actual steering force exerted on a zipp wheel is lower than with an enve wheel. with a zipp wheel, beyond a certain wind speed/yaw angle, the force drops off, which enve says is unpredictable. but that is also what happens with a classic box-section rim, so IMO, even if it's not LINEAR, it's not unpredictable. and it's lower.
internal nipples on tubulars blows. hell, internal nipples on clinchers is bad enough.
i dont believe molded spoke holes are better. carbon fibers dont work well with bends in them, especially along the load path. i have a feeling that enves molded spoke holes and internal nipples have to go together. i have a feeling that they cant easily go with molded spoke holes if the holes are big enough for nipples. it could be too much bending, too much distortion. just my theory, of course.
if going with enve's specified hubs (dt), i prefer the zipp hubs. they have much less resistance (even vs the 190), better spoke bracing angle, bearings support the axle better, and lighter.
and the firecrest wheels in general have been super reliable, super tough. hundreds have come through the doors. i cant say that the enve 6.7 havent been, not enough have come by.


Good points. I saw the torque graph comparing the enve and zipp wheels, and the enve, though linear, has much higher torque overall. I think zipp's approach makes much more sense.

Any recommendations for tires/glue? I've been using 23mm evo cx and they are so-so.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:16 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Austin, Texas
ergott wrote:
Not too much longer. Expect rims to be out there this summer.

Any chance they make an announcement regarding the Enve 6.7 clincher rims at NAHBS? I'm excited to get details, but nervous about the weight.


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Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:23 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:25 pm 
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luckysix wrote:
Good points. I saw the torque graph comparing the enve and zipp wheels, and the enve, though linear, has much higher torque overall. I think zipp's approach makes much more sense.


Link to the graphs? I'm contemplating these two wheelsets, as well, and am interested in getting as much info about them as I can.

Thanks!

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