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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:58 pm 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
Baum is EXACTLY like Rapha, a product whose value is not solely based upon it's own physical merits, but given a significant premium due to the psychological benefits of it's elitist reputation.

Have you ever ridden one?

A few facts. In Australia a Moots CR is essentially the same price as a Baum Romano (+/- a hundred dollars and stem and seatpost). Basically just over $5000 for both, but the Moots comes with the stem and seatpost. I'm not sure how the Cubano and Corretto price against the RSL.

I've ridden a Moots CR, and a Baum Corretto. There is a very tangible difference to the way they ride. It ain't 'psychological'..its a very real and visceral experience. The Moots accelerates like a metal bike. The Corretto accelerates like a carbon bike. Those fancy 'bi-ovalised' chainstays and elaborate tube shaping of the rear triangle on the Baum evidently do something.

I have no doubt that a proportion of Baum's customers are just in it for the conspicuous consumption. But you also have to weigh that against the amount of bikes he's sold to professional riders, champions, amateur racers, bike shop owners, bike mechanics and generally people with a lot of bike knowledge and experience. The frames themselves certainly have a lot of physical merit.

Now, pricing for Baum relative to its competitors in the USA may change the equation somewhat. But in Australia they aren't necessarily priced at 'superbike levels' for 'elitists only'.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Rush wrote:
The Corretto accelerates like a carbon bike. Those fancy 'bi-ovalised' chainstays and elaborate tube shaping of the rear triangle on the Baum evidently do something.

You may feel it that way but that does not mean it actually is so in terms of measurable performance.

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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:36 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Tinker, Taylor, Tart
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I reckon you could go ahead and do that test and get exactly that result though - it really does ride like a carbon race bike.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:44 pm 
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BikeTart wrote:
it really does ride like a carbon race bike.

Is that a good thing for a Ti bike ?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:02 pm 
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BikeTart wrote:
I reckon you could go ahead and do that test and get exactly that result though - it really does ride like a carbon race bike.


I can accept it may really feel like it does ride like ... but I doubt it really does in terms of performance. A titanium frame's weight alone is much higher than that of a high end carbon frame.

At the end there is not a "carbon race bike" riding feel. Different carbon frames feel differently.

Aftermath is that you love your bike and that's a good thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I think there's a statement somewhere about all Correttos come in under 1300g(?). Not that far off a lot of high end carbon.

Mine, even with ISP, comes in at 6.5kg - my R3 was heavier with similar kit, and that was a smaller bike.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:25 am 
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kgt wrote:
You may feel it that way but that does not mean it actually is so in terms of measurable performance.

True..but riding is a sensory activity. You push with your feet and you receive feedback through your hands and bum.

Riding isn't only about sitting down in front of a computer and looking at data from a test rig from a laboratory.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:25 am 
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I have nothing to add RE the discussion at hand - I'm still on my Klein QPro XX ass-beater though dream of one day owning a Moots.

I'm just wondering though - does anyone else out there think about icecreams (http://www.cornetto.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) when they hear people speak of the Baum Corretto?

Baum Cornetto - Streets ahead of the rest :)

Sorry.

Cheers,
I


Last edited by Illuminate on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:18 am 
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Illuminate wrote:
I'm just wondering through - does anyone else out there think about icecreams (http://www.cornetto.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) when they hear people speak of the Baum Corretto?


Actually...yes I do but I thought I must be the only one that doesn't love the Baum model names. That being said, Moots isn't any better :P


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:00 pm 
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RedRacer,
You needto go back to the drawing board and think for a while about what you want, because what you want is impossible.

13 lb Ti bike in size 60 with 1430 gram clinchers is completely impossible,
You are off by like 1.5-2 pounds as to what is possible. You might want to start saving for 1kilo carbon tubbies, think $1000-$5000 depending on brand and condition. These MAY help you get in the 14.7 range.

If you want it to be super light get a carbon bike, but a better one that will perform as you like (less racy, etc.)

If you want a Ti bike come to grips with the fact that they weigh more. Buy a second hand stock size and ride the hell out of it and then re-sell it at the same price in a year when you understand what you want for real.

If you want the best ride at the best price and learn to not be so worried about weight, try steel.

Geometry matters more than material, so figure out what geometry works for you.

Buying any brand new bike when you are not sure what you want means you are about to loose a grand or three when you re-sell it. The nice thing about Ti bikes is that after the intial depreciation they hold their value like champs (no so carbon). Likewise ordering custom means hard to re-sell without taking a serious hit. Maybe save the custom bike for once you understand what you want better, then work with the builder to flesh out your dreams.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:30 pm 
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The thing about riding a custom bike, or a customisy steel bike in my case, is that you never will want to sell it. The power put down is immense, and if were all v.v.lucky and graphene bikes come on the market, I'll still cherish it. Or even if Cf bumps up it's MpA ratings to me liking, perish the thought. Too much like kissin' cousins with Ti at the moment, though that might change.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:45 am 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
RedRacer,
You needto go back to the drawing board and think for a while about what you want, because what you want is impossible.

13 lb Ti bike in size 60 with 1430 gram clinchers is completely impossible,
You are off by like 1.5-2 pounds as to what is possible. You might want to start saving for 1kilo carbon tubbies, think $1000-$5000 depending on brand and condition. These MAY help you get in the 14.7 range.

If you want it to be super light get a carbon bike, but a better one that will perform as you like (less racy, etc.)



As much as your post is filled with bad news I still very much appreciate the feedback.

Maybe I should reverse-engineer the weight goal this way - What is the difference in frame weight between my Scott Addict ISP XXL/61 frame and a good custom Ti (butted) frame? It seems to me that 1400g is doable for the Ti frame so if my Scott is 9XXg (I really don't know) that means that component-for-component my new Ti machine will be 1lb heavier...with a heavenly ride, right :P ?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:34 am 
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I'd agree with reggiebaseball. The only (large) Titanium bikes I've seen that come in under 7 kgs have ~1 kg wheelsets (i.e. lightweights).

I've never seen a large metal bike under 6 kgs (13 lbs).

Have a search on the forum for various build lists to see where the weight comes from. In general, a groupset with cables is about 2.2 kg. Frame + fork is about 1500g (maybe 1600 g) for a large Titanium frame. Conventional wheels are about 1500g. You can then throw in your accessories (pedals, handlebars, saddles, stem, seatpost, cages, skewers) etc and watch the numbers add up.

My new Titanium bike will probably come in at about 7.4 kg with minimal carbon (i.e. fork only). Carbon accessories (e.g. contact points) could get that to almost 7 kg..but I'd have to embrace full-carbon wheels to get under 7 kg.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:43 am 
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My Cornetto is 6.5kg with Di2, alu bars, 25c tyres and an ISP (on Mad Fibers). Put new SRAM Red on it, change the ISP for a lighter weight seatpost and seat clamp, put light bars on it, 22c tyres (or thinner), a lighter saddle, Clavicula cranks etc and it'd have to be close to 6kg.

For reference my saddle height is 78cm and the head tube is 19cm before headset - not quite what the OP needs, but hardly 'small' either.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:45 am 
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BikeTart wrote:
My Cornetto is 6.5kg with Di2, alu bars, 25c tyres and an ISP (on Mad Fibers). Put new SRAM Red on it, change the ISP for a lighter weight seatpost and seat clamp, put light bars on it, 22c tyres (or thinner), a lighter saddle, Clavicula cranks etc and it'd have to be close to 6kg.

I'd love to see your itemized and weighed build list.


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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:45 am 


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