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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:13 am 
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LionelB wrote:
The AUD is high so it does not play in Baum's favor.

If the OP is in the US (which I get the impression he is) then he would be working through Above Category Cycles, not direct with Baum. So price a little less influenced by the up and down exchange rate.

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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:13 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:04 pm 
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As much as Baum is the current flavor of the year in titanium, can we please be honest.
The exchange rate is PROHIBITIVE for buying Baum in the US at least.

These bikes were 3-4k USD in 2009, but the currency spike makes them double that now, and simply not a good deal.
A 3k Moots CR, $4k Moots RSL, or a $4k custom firefly (or if you want the real deal try Eriksen or Steve Potts for $3k) is going to be just as nice as a Baum, certainly the Baum will not be any nicer for an extra $5k.

Titanium shouldn't be painted, so you can save the fancy Baum paint job.

If the guy lives in Geelong, then it might make sense to get a Baum.


To the OP, what is the rest of your intended build? You are a big man and want a big bike, you are being silly to worry about 200 grams in the frame, when I bet we can cut double that through proper component selection. Wanting a stiff Ti bike at 90 kilos is not a big deal, but quoting some arbitrary weight number is going to waste your time and get you on a bike that you don't like. A properly made Ti bike in your size is going to weigh closer to 1400g I think.
Part of why your carbon bike rides so crappy is that you are heavy and it is too stiff and light. IF they made a Ti bike as stiff and light as your carbon one it would ride like sh$t too.

A stock titanium bike from any number of good shops will be around $3k and suit you great. A custom built frame from a small US based builder would run you $3k-$4k and provide a better fit potentially, but likewise ride great. If you are doing a complete build then put some money into light, stiff and fast wheels, you can cut a few hundred grams here and end up with something really awesome.

By the way, I think what makes metal bikes so nice is that they do have some flex, but a well designed machine will flex sympathetically to your pedal strokes and increase your effective momentum.

Here is a Moots CR in size 61.5 which means an effective TT of 595mm and a 130 stem. Rider is 1.95m and 100kilos.
We put it on the scale and it said "who gives a sh$t, go ride"

Image

This bike could drop another pound maybe going to SR, if it was an RSL with Cannondale SISL2 crank on BB30, ultralight headset. The thing is buddy, you tried the ultralight carbon thing and it wasn't for you -- no need to replicate that mistake in a new material by going for an unfeasibly light frame. FYI proper fit and a good carbon bike would get you light weight and a good ride- not all carbon is jarring or racey.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:02 pm 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
As much as Baum is the current flavor of the year in titanium, can we please be honest.
The exchange rate is PROHIBITIVE for buying Baum in the US at least.

Given that the prices are the same as we pay here, that's simply untrue.

And they come without paint.

Facts :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Quoting post above not needed.

You just posted a link to a Titanium bike for $6400, and another for $7400.

That is DOUBLE the cost of any of the other bikes mentioned. TWO TIMES the price, for one bike frame. They are no lighter, no better performing, no more magical than something that FireFly or Eriksen or Moots could turn out.

If Baum wants to charge locals double too, well good for them. A few years ago they cost half as much and were a more competitive brand is all I am saying.

They are not hurting for customers, those customers are clearly not hurting for money, but that doesn't change the fact that they are charging a 100% premium over other "masters".

Baum are clearly the darlings of the show bike circuit, and have started to be the darlings of WW over the past two years. They go well with Rapha clothes.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Baum did not cost "half as much a few years ago", at least not in Australia. They're never been, for want of a better word, cheap.

Exchange rate back '08, plus no GST, would mean they would be closer to the mark you mentioned. But now the exchanges rates are almost at parity and it's reflected in the price. No brainer really.

The CR you posted is, not that I am aware of, custom butted (or geo) - which the Cubano and Corretto are. It's closest comparison is a Romano. So quoting the most expensive Baum is hardly apples to apples now is it.


Not sure why the hate too. But this is cycling, what would it be without some sort of sledging and condescension.


All that said and done, if cost is the driving consideration then you are spot on with the other builders you named - they all make lovely frames too. And I may or may not have been looking closely at the Firefly stainless offerings earlier today...

Oh and I'm sure none of their riders wear Rapha... :roll: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:49 pm 
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that Moots look great and is my size too !


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:54 pm 
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The poster has clearly never not ridden much titanium, wants to explore the medium and you immediately recommended a Tiffanys/Rolls Royce type product. Something that is thousands more than everything else. Built to exacting standards, but offering no benefit to justify it's price premium. It's like recommending the gold-plated colnago 80th edition bike.

If you want to pay a builder extra for taking the time to butt your tubes, Firefly and several others will do whatever you want, again for half the price of your suggestion.
Moots intentionally does not use butted tubing, because straight gauge tubing is stronger, but I am sure you know that.

Seriously you don;t want to get into a Baum vs Moots fight, because if you take price into consideration you will loose every time. There is no one on earth that will tell you a Baum is 100% better than a Moots frame. We could quibble back and forth a few grams, or about stiffness, but once we ponied up for custom geo on both and dialed them in, they will be comparable. Same would be said for Firefly, Eriksen, Steve Potts, Hampsten, Carl Strong, maybe 10 others local to the OP.



Check out the Baum-Rapha track bike some time if you like cupcakes. :P


Last edited by reggiebaseball on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:42 pm 
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I think I would try one of the chinese titanium builder, you can get a long way for 1000$ there. Ie. double butting custom ego etc.

To bad I live in Denmark where they add 25% vat. and some customs and other stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:49 pm 
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let's not get crazy. I wouldn't go for made in China. sometimes you do get what you pay for.

The OP is heavy rider who wants a comfrotable, not racy frame, there is absolutely no call for butted tubes in his build, other than vanity or a desire to overpay. Any good builder should tell him this, likewise he does NOT need a 44mm headtube, tapered fork or BB30 bottom bracket in Ti and hopefully his builder will tell him so. Because those things are required to stiffen up a carbon fiber bike, does not translate to titanium. Neither are crazy tube shapes or butting required. Neither is paint. All of these are for people who want the aesthetic of a plastic bike in Titanium, for whatever reason.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:33 am 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
but offering no benefit to justify it's price premium. It's like recommending the gold-plated colnago 80th edition bike.

You're basing this on how much time spent on a Baum? As well as the others.


Thought so.


You're the one turning this into a Baum vs <insert other frame builder>, dishing out reams of stuff that simply is not true. All I was doing was trying to make it clear you're wide of the mark, whilst recognising (and I'll even Italic it for you) the other brands mentioned also make damn fine bike. In fact, I really like the look of the Firefly SS offerings (and by "really like" I mean, want one!).

How many guys go and buy a Ferrari without having had a sports car that is a 'step below'? Plenty. The OP may be the same. He may not. Either way just keep the facts and there's no issues.


As for the Rapha hate, I guess you're one of those people. Which is fine. Hate away. I own not a single stitch of their clothing (in spite of owning 2 Baum's), but don't see the need to try and rubbish them or the brands they associate with (funny, because Moots did a Rapha bike too...).


Bottom line for the OP, steel is real. I applaud whatever brand you choose, as it's damn good stuff! :up:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:31 am 
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Baum is EXACTLY like Rapha, a product whose value is not solely based upon it's own physical merits, but given a significant premium due to the psychological benefits of it's elitist reputation.

Nobody buys a Ferrari as their first car, are you completely daft or just hanging out with Saudi oil Shieks?

Enjoy eating your caviar breakfast off of a silver Tiffany spoon and driving your Ferrari, your bike still looks like a cupcake, for mere mortals save the Baum coin and buy two or three equally good bikes and a pair of Rapha bibs.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:00 am 
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Lots of helpful info coming out of this! I will respond to some of the comments below.

Quote:
To the OP, what is the rest of your intended build? You are a big man and want a big bike, you are being silly to worry about 200 grams in the frame, when I bet we can cut double that through proper component selection. Wanting a stiff Ti bike at 90 kilos is not a big deal, but quoting some arbitrary weight number is going to waste your time and get you on a bike that you don't like. A properly made Ti bike in your size is going to weigh closer to 1400g I think.
Part of why your carbon bike rides so crappy is that you are heavy and it is too stiff and light. IF they made a Ti bike as stiff and light as your carbon one it would ride like sh$t too.


Point taken. The plan is to build it with Campagnolo SR 11spd, Fulcrum Racing Zero clinchers, 190g 23C tires, Zipp SL bar, 100g stem, etc. In other words really light bits that will still support my weight. I would consider using more costly carbon clinchers but I am not convinced of their overall performance...but that debate is for another thread! My baseline is that I own a 13.Xlb Scott Addict and my 'goal' is to build a Ti bike that doesn't weigh more which means for every gram of frame weight that is added vs the Scott I need to trim more weight from the components. Yeah, I know this is a silly goal but you only live once and I am willing to $pay$ for it. On that note, does anyone know what a 2008/2009 Scott Addict ISP XXL/61cm frame weighs?

Quote:
Any good builder should tell him this, likewise he does NOT need a 44mm headtube, tapered fork or BB30 bottom bracket in Ti and hopefully his builder will tell him so.


I must be stuck in the '90s! What is a 44mm headtube? Presumably an oversized/stiffer size that is popular with some builders?

Quote:
You just posted a link to a Titanium bike for $6400, and another for $7400.

That is DOUBLE the cost of any of the other bikes mentioned. TWO TIMES the price, for one bike frame. They are no lighter, no better performing, no more magical than something that FireFly or Eriksen or Moots could turn out.


The Baums are stunning and I am still considering the brand but I must admit that 2X the price is a lot to pay for beauty when some of the other brands are likely as good once you are hammering down the road. I also specifically want a raw titanium finish with at most a little bit of paint so some of the Baums are 'too special' for my needs.

Can anyone comment on a Moots RSL vs a Lynskey Helix OS or R440? At sub $4k USD these look like good value :lol:

To be honest my biggest issue with the Moots and Lynskey is the way they look. Both have ugly/cheap decals and..
Moots - I don't like the sloping top tube or the dull Ti finish.
Lynskey - The Helix tubing is too avant garde for me.
Maybe it is possible to pay to customize these design aspects? Time to contact them directly!!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:28 am 
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What do you all think about Spectrum?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:06 am 
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I'm not going to get into the Baum cost debate - one of mine was built as a dream bike where cost was not an issue, and the other wasn't built at normal Baum prices for reasons that are irrelevant here.

What I will say is this: My Corretto is more responsive and more comfortable than my Cervélo R3 was, and my Ristretto is head and shoulders better than my Pegoretti was. Both are significantly better bikes than my Lynskey R330 was.

When I asked the person I bought my Pegoretti from what he thought about why I didn't like it his response was, and I quote: "It's actually quite unfair coming off of the Corretto as no joke, that is one of the best bikes I've ever ridden". He also sells Moots, Pinarello and a whole host of other exotica.

Do I still want a Moots / Firefly / Colnago / Vanilla / Hampsten? Yes. And I'm sure some of them would come close to my Ristretto at least. I won't believe anything will ride as well as my Corretto until I'm proven wrong. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it would be a bloody tough call.

Just my tuppence.


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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:06 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:21 am 
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RedRacer wrote:
Lots of helpful info coming out of this! I will respond to some of the comments below.


The Baums are stunning and I am still considering the brand but I must admit that 2X the price is a lot to pay for beauty when some of the other brands are likely as good once you are hammering down the road. I also specifically want a raw titanium finish with at most a little bit of paint so some of the Baums are 'too special' for my needs.

Can anyone comment on a Moots RSL vs a Lynskey Helix OS or R440? At sub $4k USD these look like good value :lol:

To be honest my biggest issue with the Moots and Lynskey is the way they look. Both have ugly/cheap decals and..
Moots - I don't like the sloping top tube or the dull Ti finish.
Lynskey - The Helix tubing is too avant garde for me.
Maybe it is possible to pay to customize these design aspects? Time to contact them directly!![/quote]

If I were you I might lean towards the R440 verses the Helix if you go Lynskey. You mentioned graphics and that is my I have always chosen the etched graphics option on my Lynskey's. Much easier on the eyes.

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