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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 39
crohnsy wrote:
walkercycling wrote:

Retarded owner theory - The owner is national level rider (podiumed a few times) who has raced for 30+ years. So we can discount that.


Just because he has raced for 30 years and is national level doesn't he is mechanically competent.

Just as lots of fast riders know their way around the bike, many (fast) riders have trouble lubing their chain or changing a flat.


sure, fair point, but his 30+ years would have helped keeping upright in this situation, I know the riders around him where pleased it was him.

and knowing him, he is pretty handy around a bike.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:22 am
Posts: 1274
Location: Zion
JRA failure.

"Just riding along" and my bike broke! I didn't do anything. It just broke.

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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:36 am 


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:22 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1845
Location: Melbourne, Australia
I think it would be good customer service to replace the frame regardless of what really caused the failure.

The good press you get from good warranty replacement (ie the cost of a frame) is far better than the bad press you'll get even if you are right.

If someone comes back with another suspect failure...then you push the case.

At least this case the only cost involved is replacement equipment - there are no legal and medical expenses to cover.
*If* the likely cause of the frame failure was a failure some where else - replace the frame (since it was so new) but tell the customer they need to talk to the rep for the equipment that failed for any other costs. Then when ever you run into that rep remind him/her they owe you a new frame until they cut you a deal on some of thier gear for one of your race teams....

Very lucky no one was harmed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 167
I used to work as the warranty person for a large bike/bike part importer. Almost all the replacement frame were "cosmetic defect" items, since the owner was more than happy to get a new frame, didn't dare to complain for the defects. So the replacement frame didn't actually cost the manufacturer/importer too much, since those frames would have been hard to sell anyway for full price (or at all). There was only one occasion when an owner refused to accept the new frame because of the defect (out of about 150 cases). so very few warranty cases were denied for this reason: we even replaced a frame which was damaged in airline transport...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am
Posts: 529
I agree with the assessment. Sounds like it may not be a warranty issue but time will tell. Glad he is OK.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:28 am
Posts: 479
This isn't a warranty issue. Frames basically do not fail like this. It is user error.

If the owner wants to do the "right thing", he will withdraw the warranty claim, stop wasting specialized's time, as well as that of his bike shop, and either ask for a crash replacement price on a new frame, and pursue the insurance that he should have if he is racing on a 10k+ bike.

It is people like this who make warranty so difficult for people with genuine issues.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm
Posts: 720
breezerboy wrote:
Quote:
Just so you guys know, the rider in the picture had a mechanical issue earlyer befor this happened ... not sure if he had the wheel swaped or just looked at but from what i have herd the wheel fell out of the dropouts or pulled out and thats when the frame broke, probably due to the quick realeas not being tight enough


Quote:
I was behind him on the first lap. Whenever he got on the power the wheel would jump to the drive side for a second and then back to its normal spot again. I thought he had a buckle in his Zipp but when he pedalled easy or coasted it was dead straight.I also noticed his gears jumped around at one stage.

I moved up and told him I thought his wheel axle was broken, as it certainly wasn't he QR. After that I stayed ahead of him as there was something seriously wrong with his bike and I didn't want to be behind it.


Obviously issues were there before the failure, but he kept riding anyway. OK, so it was a race, but you certainly can't say the rider was blameless in the severity of the failure.

Did the mechanical cause the failure, or was it a symptom? Who knows, but without more details or further inspection you cannot say this is a "frame failure", just as I cannot say it was rider error/poor build.

Either way, as others have said, cool photo with great timing, and great skills not to faceplant.


Where is this fake quote from?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:27 am
Posts: 130
Zigmeister wrote:
Where is this fake quote from?

Other board linked above....http://www.roadgrime.com.au/forum/topic ... ost_101798" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am
Posts: 106
Dont have any ideas on the cause or otherwise of the failure BUT i am having a hard job tallying these 2 views:

"he was such an experienced rider etc etc" (imho just luck he saved it nothing more) with this quote from a fellow racer on the day:

"I was behind him on the first lap. Whenever he got on the power the wheel would jump to the drive side for a second and then back to its normal spot again. I thought he had a buckle in his Zipp but when he pedalled easy or coasted it was dead straight.I also noticed his gears jumped around at one stage.
I moved up and told him I thought his wheel axle was broken, as it certainly wasn't he QR. After that I stayed ahead of him as there was something seriously wrong with his bike and I didn't want to be behind it." (from the 2nd page of roadgrime forum)


so experienced he carried on regardless?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 242
Location: UK
tranzformer wrote:
"Obvious issues before failure" are still issues of failure.

The point I was making was - Were the issues caused by the frame, wheel, gears, poor setup etc.? Something was failing, but not necessarily the frame.

Zigmeister wrote:
Where is this fake quote from?

As pointed out by ProudDaddy, the quotes were from the other forum the OP informed us of. I didn't include the posters names as it wouldn't mean anything being from another forum. Please don't accuse me of faking quotes without checking facts 1st.

Phill P wrote:
I think it would be good customer service to replace the frame regardless of what really caused the failure.

Specialized offer a cheap crash replacement for accident damaged frames (at least in the UK, although not advertised it exists). If they gave everyone a free replacement for every damaged frame, regardless of fault they would have to increase the purchase price to cover this. As it is, a small percentage covers warranty, that percentage would go up considerably if it included free accident cover too.
Would you happily pay an extra 10-20% to cover other peoples screw ups and accidents next time you bought a frame/bike/component?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 39
Tokyo Drifter wrote:
This isn't a warranty issue. Frames basically do not fail like this. It is user error.

If the owner wants to do the "right thing", he will withdraw the warranty claim, stop wasting specialized's time, as well as that of his bike shop, and either ask for a crash replacement price on a new frame, and pursue the insurance that he should have if he is racing on a 10k+ bike.

It is people like this who make warranty so difficult for people with genuine issues.


:spam:


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1976
Location: NoVA/DC
i dont think that's spam. i feel like this all the time. i feel people are often unable to accept the consequences of their own actions. so i wish people would "do the right thing".
that said, in this "real world", specialized may get this guy a replacement, especially if the shop he is working with is a big player. and, unfortunately, especially if he cries the loudest. as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1845
Location: Melbourne, Australia
I don't think its spam either- I think its a very valid counter opinion to what I'd said.

Some times its completely obvious that a failure is user error
-dropped the frame and dented a tube
-ripped a chain through the stays and ripped the FD/RD off
-driven over it reversing

My thought is it is hard to know exactly what happened here, the frame is brand new, and this guy is an influential well respected customer with a brand new very expensive bike.
The cost of not looking after him will be greater than if you give him a new frame. Yes this comes out of the warranty budget, but that is factored into the cost of frames from good brands so they can provide better service than less respected brands (or non brands)


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:44 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 778
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Having read all the comments on both forums CAREFULLY, and looked at the picture many times, one thing puzzles me - it looks like the wheel is not attached to the left dropout.
Surely even if the right chain stay and seat stay broke "spontaneously" the skewer would still firmly hold the wheel into the dropouts????
It would seem, by the anecdotal evidence supplied that the skewer was loose, or even possibly broke. If the wheel then jumped out of the dropout the pedaling action would have applied significant force to the right side chain and seat stay, causing them to break.

The rider might have been riding for 30 years, but if his wheel had jumped several times under power as reported by posts on the other forum, he is mostly to blame for the catastrophic failure as he did not stop and fix the problem. Furthermore his failure to check out the problem is highly irresponsible. He could have brought down many other riders if he crashed, destroying their bikes and causing serious injury. No weekend race is that important that you have to win at all costs, is it?

Most things have a cause and effect.
Many so called "I was just riding along" failures are the result of previous accident damage, damage while in transit, or poor assembly by the bike shop, or incorrect setup by home mechanics.
The fact that the chain stay and seat stay both broke midway would indicate an external lateral or twisting force was applied to both simultaneously. The likelihood of having a manufacturing defect in both the seat stay and chain stay is highly unlikely.

It would be interesting to see more pictures of the damage, the condition of the skewer, and feedback from the rider himself.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:47 am 
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Location: BELGIUM
I'd guess the wheel came off while powering up that hill out of the saddle, possibly due to a broken axle near the dropout or a loose skewer. The wheel then slammed into the chainstay/seatstay halfway. Otherwise I can't see how both would break midway. Or the torque on the chain pulled the driveside over it's limits and they snapped. The latter seems unlikely..

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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:47 am 


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