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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:21 pm 
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Location: Santa Monica, CA
Sigh, every time I see that picture.... :cry:

Still, it's going to cost me double, on the wife:bike ratio.

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 Post subject: CAT Brakes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:07 pm 
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Do the negative comments regarding CAT brakes refer to the new model shown in various posts or to an older, obsolete model? Furthermore, if in fact these CAT brakes have inadequate stopping power, why is this so?


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 Post subject: CAT Brakes
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:07 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:51 pm 
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Location: Colorado
The old model, no one here has tested the new version, but I don't expect performance to be much better, no significant changes, just minor ones. Why do they have inadequate stopping power? TOO LIGHT! Squeez them as hard as you can on your rim, they flex big time. Brakes aren't something to skimp on.

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 Post subject: CAT v. Record
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:02 am 
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I'm new to this forum, checked it out to review CATs, and this debate is interesting.
Superlite your comments seem based on real experience, in real situations, and not just web lust.
So for a larger rider (180#, not your 130#) in LA area (some hills, but not real CO montaignes) would you recommend Record over the CATs? What about the Cane Creek BRS-200 SL? Opinions from all are welcomed. Thanks.

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 Post subject: CAT Brakes
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:15 pm 
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These postings reveal the quintessence of the problem in very light weight bikes and bike parts-very light weight results in loss of function. Another problem apparent is that although weight itself is not difficult to determine, measuring function is difficult. In short, weighing parts is easy and objective, evaluating function is subjective and unreliable.
What we get on this site, and in most cycling publications, are apocryphal reports about the fuction of bikes and parts-reports given by riders of greatly varying strength, weight, experience and under vastly different riding conditions. Furthermore, the part being evaluated by the various riders is the only constant on bikes that are usually different in every respect! No objective conclusion can be drawn from these reports-the variables are too numerous.
What's the remedy for evaluating funcion of bikes and parts? Probably minimizing the number of variables-if brakes are being tested brakes should be the only variable put to test-rider, bike and conditions should be the same. Better yet would be laboratory conditions in which frames and parts are tested objectively by scientific means.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 7:55 pm 
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Yes, but who's going to do that independently? I agree that all the variants make for very different experiences and interpretations, and there's subjectivity in all of it, but across-the-board "equal" independent testing would be hard to come by.

If Superlite says he's not sure these brakes will work on stopping his 130#, that the brakes deflect under load, then I'm surely apprehensive trusting my 180# to them, regardless of his/my bike/setup!

I asked both C.A.T.-USA and Zero Gravity about the claimed 15% more stopping power, I asked them how they derived that figure: I received answers to other questions, but no reply to that one! That's the mfgr and distributor claiming and marketing a function, IMHO more important than the reduced objective weight alone.

I would assume they derived this from some testing, right? And they're advertising it: Where are their comparisons, conditions, data and results, then?

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 Post subject: CAT Brakes
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:52 pm 
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Here's the paradox found in this forum-the entire pretext of the forum is to provide objective information-weight of bikes and components-this information is provided by contributors to the forum. Furthermore, it's often found to be at odds with that weight provided by manufacturers. On the other hand, when it comes to function of bikes or parts all we get is purely subjective. Information regarding brake function is not more valid coming from someone in Tibet than in Death Valley.
To answer your question directly, the information regarding function should also come from our forum members-but in an objective form. For example, someone providing information about brakes might give the number of feet need to stop from 25 miles/hour with CAT brakes and then, using the same bike and conditions, provide the same data using Campy brakes. It might take a little work, but would be a lot more informative than what we're getting now-most of which should be given over to a new part of the forum which could be called "rumor weenies."


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 Post subject: Re: CAT v. Record
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:41 pm 
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cadence90 wrote:
I'm new to this forum, checked it out to review CATs, and this debate is interesting.
Superlite your comments seem based on real experience, in real situations, and not just web lust.
So for a larger rider (180#, not your 130#) in LA area (some hills, but not real CO montaignes) would you recommend Record over the CATs? What about the Cane Creek BRS-200 SL? Opinions from all are welcomed. Thanks.


He does have real experience on this brakes, he had it on his previous bikes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:56 pm 
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Yes, I respect that tried he bought them, liked them at first, tried them more and with that experience changed his mind. That's real-life testing, where it matters most, and he was kind enough to provide some real advice, which I greatly appreciate.

In short, this is one of those products where the weight reduction appears to in fact affect performance negatively, at least in certain situations.
For me, re: brakes, that's NG. I don't want to worry about them....

I have some info re: CAT v. Zero, I'll post a new thread, but the changes haven't convinced me, for my desires, that these are the way to go....

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:06 pm 
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Of course the experience and opinions of everyone on this forum are much to be respected. In fact, most times, there're also interesting and informative. But what they too frequently convey is purely subjective-recall that this is a forum dedicated to the most objective form of information.
More to the point , on the subject of CAT(Zero Gravity) brakes we now have found out that there is a new improved brake and that this brake is to be employed by some UCI teams. What we don't know is their real stopping power-specifically as it relates to other brakes.
Forum members could help us all by providing objective information on this subject.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:57 pm 
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You guys crack me up. Just about everyone on this forum takes everything superlite says as the gospel. Nothing against superlite and I am not trying to be disrespectful to him in anyway, but come on....

I've had these brakes on my bike for more then a year and logged about 4K miles on them. The bike these are mounted on is a 13.85 pound LOOK KG281 and I have had no maintenance problems or stopping problems with these brakes. I've run them on Ksyrium wheels and American Classic carbon wheels with absolutely zero problems in braking. I am 155 pounds and a fairly aggressive decender down the North Georgia mountains. Granted they aren't as high as superlite's mountiains in Colorado, but they are just as steep and the curves are just as sharp. There is one mountiain here called Hogpen that if you don't use the breaks you'll easily hit 60mph. I trust these breaks to handle any emergency situation I encounter and they have yet to fade out on me. I've used Shimano Ultegra and Dura Ace brakes and now using 2004 Campy Record brakes on another bike and the CAT brakes stop me better then any other brake I've tried. I would like to add that the pads that come with the CAT brakes absolutely suck and should be replaced before using them. I replaced them with Dura Ace carbon pads and have had great luck in dry or wet conditions. I've been lucky in the fact that the guy who makes these brakes is about 30 minutes from me and I actually had him set the brakes up for me. That being said I have to wonder if superlite has them 100% dialed in. The directions are pretty clear that if they aren't set up exactly right then you'll experience some of the issues superlite brings up.

My point is don't take one person's bad experience with something as the gospel as you could be missing out on a great addition to you bike.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:55 am 
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Point taken, and obviously good experiences are welcomed. As far as "gospel" is concerned, I don't know about that...the guy simply had some informed criticism to offer, I thought.

Your positive review is equally appreciated.

If one reads the thread I started re: CAT v. Zero Gravity it is clear that even the manufacturer claims there were lots of improvements to be made to the CATs (improvements, BTW, to the same defects Superlite pointed out).

So, first, that is an issue, that they needed that much improvement. Second, neither the mfr. nor CAT has actually supported the "15% more stopping power" claim, although they are advertised as such, which I think is the kind of issue Gholl was getting at: claimed, promotional or subjective info v. hard data type of thing.

Kind of like an AX saddle which snaps and then the mfr. response is that the saddle clamp rails should have been filed down????Woweee.....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
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Location: New York City
LOOK wrote:
You guys crack me up. Just about everyone on this forum takes everything superlite says as the gospel. Nothing against superlite and I am not trying to be disrespectful to him in anyway, but come on....

I've had these brakes on my bike for more then a year and logged about 4K miles on them. The bike these are mounted on is a 13.85 pound LOOK KG281 and I have had no maintenance problems or stopping problems with these brakes. I've run them on Ksyrium wheels and American Classic carbon wheels with absolutely zero problems in braking. I am 155 pounds and a fairly aggressive decender down the North Georgia mountains. Granted they aren't as high as superlite's mountiains in Colorado, but they are just as steep and the curves are just as sharp. There is one mountiain here called Hogpen that if you don't use the breaks you'll easily hit 60mph. I trust these breaks to handle any emergency situation I encounter and they have yet to fade out on me. I've used Shimano Ultegra and Dura Ace brakes and now using 2004 Campy Record brakes on another bike and the CAT brakes stop me better then any other brake I've tried. I would like to add that the pads that come with the CAT brakes absolutely suck and should be replaced before using them. I replaced them with Dura Ace carbon pads and have had great luck in dry or wet conditions. I've been lucky in the fact that the guy who makes these brakes is about 30 minutes from me and I actually had him set the brakes up for me. That being said I have to wonder if superlite has them 100% dialed in. The directions are pretty clear that if they aren't set up exactly right then you'll experience some of the issues superlite brings up.

My point is don't take one person's bad experience with something as the gospel as you could be missing out on a great addition to you bike.


hmm, i will change the pads on mine, but i have yet to have a problem with them. superlite may have more exp. and more hill time since he lives in colorado (so i am inclined to believe him in a way). mechanically the dura ace and campy brakes have more leverage than the cat's so they may apply more pressure to the rim, and in high speeds slow you down faster; but i dont know how much better they are, is it a big diff. superlite??? :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:22 pm 
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Getting ahead of ourselves here, gentlemen. What we all need to do is wait until products such as the Zero and AX-Lightness brakes have actualy been ridden by a few people and then wait to see what the responses are. We are basically talking about weight here, because nobody has even ridden (from what I can ascertain) the new brakesets yet. The fact that the ZGs are being ridden by a few pro teams will tell us what we need to know in the next few months.
Why? Despite what has been said about pros having to ride what is given to them regardless of quality, they WILL rebel if a particular piece of equipment is crap. So in the case of these brakesets, I will hold on to my money until they pass the test of time. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:11 pm 
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right on: weight AND performance.

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 Post subject:
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:11 pm 


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