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 Post subject: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:25 am
Posts: 71
Location: Scotland
Im a about to purchase my first set of tubular wheels and like the idea of using tubular tape rather than glue as it looks easier to use an will let me get used to riding on tubs without the fear of wondering if I've glued them on properly.

What's a good combination of tyre and tape to use on a carbon rim and do you still need to use adhesive to glue the tape to the rim?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Tubular tape
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:56 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4470
Location: Canada
I am sure you have been browsing the tubular gluing thread and probably know what I am going to say: I would strongly advise the use of 'conventional' glue as opposed to tape to glue your tires. Glue creates a better bond and is easier to deal with when you mount a new tire later.

I know it may seem messy or daunting, etc., and there is a certain 'mystique' that has built-up around the care and feeding of tubulars in modernity, but it really isn't anything to be worried about. Just browse or search that sticky, fdegrove and others (even me) have posted step-by step instructions on how to simply and easily glue a set of tubulars based upon decades and decades of experience. A number of other 'first-timers' have posted that, when they followed the instructions, they couldn't believe all the fretting they were doing beforehand.

Get some Vittoria Mastik 1, prep your rims and glue them up as we recommend. You, too, will wonder what the big fuss is about.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:04 am
Posts: 2360
Location: Mississippi
:popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:00 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
I can vouch for the "read the sticky" direction. Did so myself and everything went much better than expected :) Got both of the tubulars on straight(ish) and have never had problems with the bond coming undone or anything.

/Emil

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:26 am
Posts: 603
Read the thread, don't skimp on your safety for ease of use.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 375
Location: England, UK
I've tried both proper glueing (last year) and taping (with bonus glue) this year. Taping is just so much more convienient, cleaner and easier (both initially and to redo) in my own limited experience. The tubular gods (Geoff and fdegrove) will frown on me and there will mutterings of CRR from other quarters but this is my experience. There is no doubting that the proper gluing produces a more secure fix however (too secure for me, removal a total pain), depends on your level of paranonia.

I use Jantex tape (not Tufo) with a layer of mastik1 glue on the rim beforehand as per Planet X Youtube Tub fitting video (except I put a layer on a bit nicer):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRQDjEEuDDw"

I also use a pen or similar to keep the tub on straight as the tape is removed, it also makes the tape backing removal easier (like this):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2foDqzXEaUE"

However do read the tubular threads, they are a goldmine.

Updated: added youtube links


Last edited by TimW on Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:20 am
Posts: 63
tufo tape may be easy and quick but I HAVE ROLLED TUBULARS USING TUFO TAPE the first time was during a race going through a corner hard....they second and i never should have let there be a second time! was descending during training and almost killed me....don't use these!!! glue is much better both under heavy load and also at higher temperatures!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5786
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I use Jantex tape (not Tufo) with a layer of mastik1 glue on the rim beforehand as per Uncle Daves Planet X Youtube Tub Fitting video.


Uncle Dave? That's the Belgian method as used by the cyclo cross guys. Where it serves its purpose but nevermind...

If you're going to the trouble of putting down a layer of rim cement on your rim what's stopping you from doing the same on the base tape of that tub?

Besides that, Jantex tape is nothing more than a piece of open weave textile plus Tubasti cement. It's not a good rim cement and as its formulation is totally different from all other cements it should only be used in combination with more Tubasti and nothing else.
I'm not saying all other cements can be combined randomly either....

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 375
Location: England, UK
I like to read the theories then I like to try things out and see what does or doesn't work.

The layer of glue on the rim seems to help getting the tape bonded to the rim rather than the tubular. What it means is that when the tub is removed, it comes off quite nicely and is ready to be fitted again if required. It's also really quick to clean up the rim after removal, takes about 30mins to get it back to completely clean. Not being a scientist I have no idea whether these glues are compatible, but it seems to work. I've never seen Tubasti glue for sale in the UK.

An important point to note in the video is that the rim is glued and then tape applied, the tyre is inflated which helps force the tape to adhere to the rim. Then after a while the tub is deflated and the backing tape is removed and the tub is seated.

The main advantage is that it doesn't take 2 days to mount a tub only to find it wasn't straight and then having to start again. Instead 15 mins (or an hour if you have to scrub the wheel)

Out of interest, why just because it's almost the Belgium Cyclocross method should it not work for road wheels?

Cheers

(p.s. videos updated above, also it's Wayne not Dave oops )


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5786
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Out of interest, why just because it's almost the Belgium Cyclocross method should it not work for road wheels


Do you want to try out track tubulars on the road as well?

Quote:
The layer of glue on the rim seems to help getting the tape bonded to the rim rather than the tubular.


Which speaks volumes for the bond of the tape on its own, doesn't it?

What matters most when mounting tubulars is not so much the strength of the bond but the way the bond behaves when stressed. It should be self-healing and not a "stick until it suddenly unsticks" kind of bond for its with the latter type of adhesion you'll roll a tub, you'll end up with sore thumbs when you have to remove the stuff etc., etc....

When things are done a certain way for decades and decades there is good reason not to change it in a hurry.

To put it quite simply: instead of considering cutting corners where there are none to be cut think about your own safety and that of others first.

No offence, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 375
Location: England, UK
None taken, its good to talk over these things :-)

However, your answer re Belgium taping deflects a question: Cyclocross tyres have to hold on wheels at lower pressures so are we saying that this method does not work? That doesn't add up. What is the science or reasoning?

I've not tried that tape without extra glue so I don't know. What I am saying is that when the tub is removed there is a very even spread of glue on the base tape I suppose and there is still a layer containing most of the string carrier still on the rim. With glued tubs, I often found the result of removing a tub more uneven on the rim and tub. Probably speaks volumes about my glueing technique though :-)

To say that something has always been done a particular way and it is therefore the best method, is just crazy. There would never be any progress or innovation in anything if everyone took that line. How long does it take before something is considered acceptable? Is it OK for some types of cycling but not others? If so why?

I'm not against glueing or pro tape btw (I've tried both), just debating the merits of tape vs glue.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:53 am
Posts: 181
TimW wrote:
None taken, its good to talk over these things :-)

However, your answer re Belgium taping deflects a question: Cyclocross tyres have to hold on wheels at lower pressures so are we saying that this method does not work? That doesn't add up. What is the science or reasoning?

I've not tried that tape without extra glue so I don't know. What I am saying is that when the tub is removed there is a very even spread of glue on the base tape I suppose and there is still a layer containing most of the string carrier still on the rim. With glued tubs, I often found the result of removing a tub more uneven on the rim and tub. Probably speaks volumes about my glueing technique though :-)

To say that something has always been done a particular way and it is therefore the best method, is just crazy. There would never be any progress or innovation in anything if everyone took that line. How long does it take before something is considered acceptable? Is it OK for some types of cycling but not others? If so why?

I'm not against glueing or pro tape btw (I've tried both), just debating the merits of tape vs glue.

Thanks


It is a really hard issue to debate. People have a mindset and are hard to change! I know many people who do crit racing all the time, and some of them have been racing on tape for several years with no problems at all.

I was all set to use tape when I first got my tubulars 5 months ago. But I thought I should try glue at least once, to see how hard it would be. I watched this video several times http://youtu.be/OGw3DlZMRGI, read through the gluing thread. I've been riding those wheels now for 4.5 months with no issues at all. I don't think I'll ever use tape, except for side road flat change, and only if the CafeLatex fails to repair a puncture.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 318
TimW wrote:
However, your answer re Belgium taping deflects a question: Cyclocross tyres have to hold on wheels at lower pressures so are we saying that this method does not work? That doesn't add up. What is the science or reasoning?


The cornering forces are very different in cyclocross compared to road cycling. Therefore a different gluing technique may be appropriate. May. On road bikes on paved roads you can enter a turn at 20-30-40 mph. Descending a mountain you can easily lean the bike over at 45 degrees through a turn at 40 mph. On a cyclocross course you never reach those high of speeds. And most of the course is on grass, dirt terrain. Hairpin turns are usually not on paved roads in a cyclocross race. There is also the adhesion of the road surface. Paved roads grip the tire stronger than grass/dirt of a cyclocross course. The dirt/grass will slip when the tire bites into it on a turn. And there is the tread on the tire itself. Cyclocross tires are knobbies. They cannot grip as strongly as a smooth road tire. There is more rubber in contact with the ground on a road tire compared to a cyclocross tire in a turn. In a turn the cyclocross tire will slip, the bike will slide sideways on the slick grass/dirt. On a road bike in a turn the bike will probably not slide sideways. You might, but more likely you will flip the bike sideways or roll the tubular.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Posts: 5081
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
Leaving aside the merits of what RussellS wrote regarding road vs. cyclocross, does anyone lean a road bike through a turn at anywhere near as much as a 45 degree angle? I really don't know, but sounds suspicious to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 375
Location: England, UK
RussellS...good reply, interesting arguments.

And to continue in that vein of thought, Time Triallists don't generally corner cranked over (that much) at high speed which would explain why taping would work usually for them too.

Thanks!

(Think I might have to order that big tin of Mastik after all :-) )


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:00 pm 


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