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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5796
Location: Belgium
Hi,

HammerTime2 wrote:
Leaving aside the merits of what RussellS wrote regarding road vs. cyclocross, does anyone lean a road bike through a turn at anywhere near as much as a 45 degree angle? I really don't know, but sounds suspicious to me.


Most tyres will send you right into the scenery at such an angle. 55 to 50 degrees is already quite extreme and only feasable at very high speeds IMHO.

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 254
RMcC wrote:
Im a about to purchase my first set of tubular wheels and like the idea of using tubular tape rather than glue as it looks easier to use an will let me get used to riding on tubs without the fear of wondering if I've glued them on properly.

What's a good combination of tyre and tape to use on a carbon rim and do you still need to use adhesive to glue the tape to the rim?

Thanks

I also was afraid at the beginning to glue the tyre but it's not a big deal. Quite simple. The trick is not to put too much glue, just a thin layer on rim and one onthe tyre bid if it's new. You also need to starch the tyre on the rim before glue enough time like 24 hr or even more, will make things easier. I ride gatorskin sprinter and they very good, durable, puncture protected and easy to mount. I never road tape so I don't know I just read comments from people who said glue is much better and safer.


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 Post subject: Tubular tape
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:53 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:54 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5796
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
And to continue in that vein of thought, Time Triallists don't generally corner cranked over (that much) at high speed which would explain why taping would work usually for them too.


Work against them more likely. Tape ups the Crr value so that's the last thing you'd want in a TT.

Besides that, the idea of tape making a tubular easier to remove is at best debatable.
Granted it's easy with Jantex but then the bond is way too weak anyway. Certainly not something I'd use on a carbon rim.
Tufo tape OTOH can be a downright nightmare. To remove a tub as well as to remove the tape from the rim....

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:49 am 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

HammerTime2 wrote:
Leaving aside the merits of what RussellS wrote regarding road vs. cyclocross, does anyone lean a road bike through a turn at anywhere near as much as a 45 degree angle? I really don't know, but sounds suspicious to me.


Most tyres will send you right into the scenery at such an angle. 55 to 50 degrees is already quite extreme and only feasable at very high speeds IMHO.
From your reply, I presume you are measuring angle from ground to rider, i.e., upright riding with no lean is 90 degrees, and sliding on the ground is 0 degrees. I had in mind the opposite convention, in which upright riding with no lean is 0 degrees (lean angle) and sliding on the ground is 90 degrees. Of course, it comes out the same either way for 45 degrees.

So your 55 to 50 degrees would be my 35 to 40 degrees, which of course is less than 45 degrees.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 1064
RussellS wrote:
The cornering forces are very different in cyclocross compared to road cycling. Therefore a different gluing technique may be appropriate. May. On road bikes on paved roads you can enter a turn at 20-30-40 mph. Descending a mountain you can easily lean the bike over at 45 degrees through a turn at 40 mph. On a cyclocross course you never reach those high of speeds. And most of the course is on grass, dirt terrain. Hairpin turns are usually not on paved roads in a cyclocross race. There is also the adhesion of the road surface. Paved roads grip the tire stronger than grass/dirt of a cyclocross course. The dirt/grass will slip when the tire bites into it on a turn. And there is the tread on the tire itself. Cyclocross tires are knobbies. They cannot grip as strongly as a smooth road tire. There is more rubber in contact with the ground on a road tire compared to a cyclocross tire in a turn. In a turn the cyclocross tire will slip, the bike will slide sideways on the slick grass/dirt. On a road bike in a turn the bike will probably not slide sideways. You might, but more likely you will flip the bike sideways or roll the tubular.

Much of this is just plain wrong. The force exerted on the glue/tape is very dependent on the cross section of the tyre. Larger tyres can generate lots of force at the bond regardless of the surface/terrain you're riding on.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
It all started off so well, tubs are easy to mount, nothing to fret about. Yet once again you end up needing a Phd on time and space theory relative to the gravitational pull of jupiter and its surrounding moons and the effects it has on earth and going down alp de huez at an angle that would make Einstein wet his pants . I love it . I ride clinchers


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:06 am 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5796
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I ride clinchers


So did Einstein or so I've been told. :mrgreen:

Chill, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
Actually Einstein or big Al to his chums, rode up Alpe de huez in 1949 in a time of 47mins exactly, beating Sir Isaac Newtons record by 12 seconds. Newton would later go on to be famous for apples. Einstein rode tubs. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Posts: 5096
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
This has already been addressed.

In weight weenie tire choice needed, HammerTime2 wrote:
fdegrove wrote:
Once you master all that the logical step up is tubulars, no doubt in my mind about that.
They are superior in every aspect no matter how you look at it. A simple solution to a quite difficult problem. Even Albert Einstein would agree....
Then why did Einstein ride clinchers? Or was that perhaps because Mastik One was not yet available, thereby removing one aspect of superiority?
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 392
Location: England, UK
Here is the summary so far as I see it:

* So far there is no compelling evidence that the Jantex glue/tape method posted with videos back near the beginning is flawed?
* I think we are all more or less agreed that plain gluing is a superior method but also much more time consuming if done properly. It also produces a lower rolling resistance than tape (although that's not really being argued)
* Many people don't like Tufo tape, since it might be easy to apply but it is nightmare when it comes to changing a tub.

And now to add some more fuel to the debate:
PlanetX shift a massive amount of wheels so I can't believe they would post something that doesn't work? (works for me so far, anyone else?). Again, I am happy to change if I find the method flawed, I'm just experimenting and believe everyone should make their own mind up. I don't race crits, I'm just a regular rider - I have no idea what the OP intends to do. Found this review of Jantex: http://road.cc/content/review/18602-vel ... bular-tape"

Clinchers are so boring. At least with tubulars we can have some debate :-)

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
HammerTime2 wrote:
This has already been addressed.

In weight weenie tire choice needed, HammerTime2 wrote:
fdegrove wrote:
Once you master all that the logical step up is tubulars, no doubt in my mind about that.
They are superior in every aspect no matter how you look at it. A simple solution to a quite difficult problem. Even Albert Einstein would agree....
Then why did Einstein ride clinchers? Or was that perhaps because Mastik One was not yet available, thereby removing one aspect of superiority?
Image


To my shame I now realise that it was impossible for big Al to have rode tubs, I shall be seeking help and going into some head type clinic. Once again very very sorry for getting stuff wrong and generally lying about Einstein and his tyres :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:53 pm
Posts: 70
I've spent a few years fiddling around with Jantex and or glue, and I've come to a few conclusions.

Jantex tap on virgin rims is dangerous
Jantex tape on rims that have been glued before works ok
Glue alone is stronger still (and I use the unpopular around these parts Conti glue).

In the end I found glue not only created a stronger bond, it's more relaxing to apply too (i really dislike that Jantex backing paper ;))


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:17 am 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5796
Location: Belgium
Hi,

TimW wrote:
Here is the summary so far as I see it:

* So far there is no compelling evidence that the Jantex glue/tape method posted with videos back near the beginning is flawed?

I don't think the guy from Planet X has any idea why he does it that way but it sure makes some nice publicity.
Bet he doesn't even have a clue why it's used that way in cyclo-cross either, if he did he'd realise why it serves no purpose on a road bike.

Once again, this Jantex tape (and this is not carpet layers's tape as some web journals suggest) comes with its coat of Tubasti cement which is an inferior cement that has nothing in common with more well reputed cement such as Mastik One, Conti and Schwalbe. Mixing different cements will not only make for an inferior bond it may well compromise the entire gluing job.
Those are facts.

Jantex has been around for ages and it was a convenient solution in the days of alloy rims only for those who didn't need a decent glue job such as recreational riders. It wasn't much good then it is even much worse on a carbon rim now.



* I think we are all more or less agreed that plain gluing is a superior method but also much more time consuming if done properly. It also produces a lower rolling resistance than tape (although that's not really being argued)

Most of the consumed time is going into waiting. Can't be that hard?

* Many people don't like Tufo tape, since it might be easy to apply but it is nightmare when it comes to changing a tub.

Once more one of those "brilliant" inventions by marketeers who have no idea what a good rim cement should be about.

And now to add some more fuel to the debate:
PlanetX shift a massive amount of wheels so I can't believe they would post something that doesn't work? (works for me so far, anyone else?). Again, I am happy to change if I find the method flawed, I'm just experimenting and believe everyone should make their own mind up. I don't race crits, I'm just a regular rider - I have no idea what the OP intends to do. Found this review of Jantex: http://road.cc/content/review/18602-vel ... bular-tape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Planet-X are box movers. Period.

Clinchers are so boring. At least with tubulars we can have some debate :-)

Cheers


Tubulars are going to be the most boring thing on earth if I need to repeat everything ad nauseam as well. :twisted:

Some tips: Read everything by Jobst Brandt on tubulars.
Although he doesn't even care much about them, he generally knows more about them and tyres in general than all the other "clowns" on the internet combined.

Tubular gluing in a nutshell: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/tubular-tire-gluing
Well written by people that do understand what it's about.
If you understand what they're telling you, you won't need any video on You Tube or whatever. You'll also realise that gluing a tubular is quite straightforward.
All most people do however is invent ways to completely mess it up.... :lol:

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:25 am
Posts: 71
Location: Scotland
Well thanks for all the replies. I started reading the tubular thread up to about page 15 then realised there were 184 pages.

Ill go for the glueing method I think and if its as easy as most people make out ill stick with it. I only ride recreationally at the minute but I suppose if I learn to glue then no need to change if I fancy a go at TT's or racing in the future.

Ive also made the decision to go with Vittoria Corsa Evo CX's and use mastik glue. What is the best size tyre to use i.e 21c,23c or 25c. My thoughts are 23c back and front as with the clinchers I ride at the minute but from reading the thread is seems some people ride different front and back. Is there a specific reason for this. And does anyone know what valve extender would be best for 38mm rims.

Thanks


Last edited by RMcC on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:26 pm
Posts: 832
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

TimW wrote:
Here is the summary so far as I see it:

* So far there is no compelling evidence that the Jantex glue/tape method posted with videos back near the beginning is flawed?

I don't think the guy from Planet X has any idea why he does it that way but it sure makes some nice publicity.
Bet he doesn't even have a clue why it's used that way in cyclo-cross either, if he did he'd realise why it serves no purpose on a road bike.

Once again, this Jantex tape (and this is not carpet layers's tape as some web journals suggest) comes with its coat of Tubasti cement which is an inferior cement that has nothing in common with more well reputed cement such as Mastik One, Conti and Schwalbe. Mixing different cements will not only make for an inferior bond it may well compromise the entire gluing job.
Those are facts.

Jantex has been around for ages and it was a convenient solution in the days of alloy rims only for those who didn't need a decent glue job such as recreational riders. It wasn't much good then it is even much worse on a carbon rim now.



* I think we are all more or less agreed that plain gluing is a superior method but also much more time consuming if done properly. It also produces a lower rolling resistance than tape (although that's not really being argued)

Most of the consumed time is going into waiting. Can't be that hard?

* Many people don't like Tufo tape, since it might be easy to apply but it is nightmare when it comes to changing a tub.

Once more one of those "brilliant" inventions by marketeers who have no idea what a good rim cement should be about.

And now to add some more fuel to the debate:
PlanetX shift a massive amount of wheels so I can't believe they would post something that doesn't work? (works for me so far, anyone else?). Again, I am happy to change if I find the method flawed, I'm just experimenting and believe everyone should make their own mind up. I don't race crits, I'm just a regular rider - I have no idea what the OP intends to do. Found this review of Jantex: http://road.cc/content/review/18602-vel ... bular-tape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Planet-X are box movers. Period.

Clinchers are so boring. At least with tubulars we can have some debate :-)

Cheers


Tubulars are going to be the most boring thing on earth if I need to repeat everything ad nauseam as well. :twisted:

Some tips: Read everything by Jobst Brandt on tubulars.
Although he doesn't even care much about them, he generally knows more about them and tyres in general than all the other "clowns" on the internet combined.

Tubular gluing in a nutshell: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/tubular-tire-gluing
Well written by people that do understand what it's about.
If you understand what they're telling you, you won't need any video on You Tube or whatever. You'll also realise that gluing a tubular is quite straightforward.
All most people do however is invent ways to completely mess it up.... :lol:

Ciao, ;)


I don't re apply glue to the base tape of a previously glued tubular when re applying. Just the rim. Also I only apply one base layer to a new rim so only 2 coats in total. No problems yet but I don't race and don't really push the adhesion to it's limits.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubular tape
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:06 am 


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