That made me laugh! I think that this opinion is held by many on this side of the pond too, so it is not just a question of perspective. The reputation is certainly deserved based upon the US-made muscle cars of the 60's and 70's. I'm not sure we've (i.e. Americans and the American car industry) done too much to change that, especially compared to what comes out of Europe, but some of the higher end American cars probably hold up better by comparison than they used to. That sort of dovetails well with something I think you said earlier; namely that once you get such a reputation it can be difficult to change the public's perception.

You actually think that validates your extremist rantings? I'd keep quiet about watching that tripe!

The way a frame is constructed is important in deciding if it is truly handmade or not. Monocoque is far less skills intensive a wrapped joint constructed frame. The other thing you're ignoring is the criteria of volume. Parlee may be relatively small compared to Trek etc but they are probably one of the largest producers at NAHMBS. Crumpton is far smaller being one guy, so is far from being out of step with being what NAHMBS is about.

You seem to have an almost pathological inability to see degrees of anything. It has to be wrong or right, patriotism is xenophobia or racism. You also shoot yourself in the foot by not researching your facts thoroughly. Why not try debating rationally rather than pontificating inanely? Then we might actually take you seriously.

Especially when you bear in mind that when Ford needed a car that did go round corners properly so they could beat Ferrari they came to the UK.

the year is 2012 NOT 1966.

check out the lap times from the green hell. viper/corvettes/camaro/cadillac. funny similiar situation in road bike technology. cervelo/cannondale/specialized/trek vs the old euro brands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N% ... _lap_times

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Current Rides:

2010 SWorks SL3 7090 di2
2013 Trek 6.5 PO 9070 di2

Flying laps of the Nurburgring are less the measure of excellence of the car and more the skill of the driver.

Name one international race won by an american car. It isn't possible because it hasn't happened on a track with corners other than banked left handers!

Le Mans - Never
Monza - Never
Monaco - Never
Silverstone - Never
Spa - Never
Magny Cours - Never
Etc etc...

Many of the US 'street' muscle cars are very torquey and fast. Just don't expect them to turn well. That's typically where they'll lose time to the European counterpart.

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RUEGAMER 5.21kg, 11.48lbs

CRUMPTON 4.40kg, 9.70lbs

I can remember Penske winning an F1 race in the 70s, and I'm not even into racing cars.

I stand corrected.

It appears I inadvertently opened the proverbial 'can-of-worms' with my original posting. Sorry, given the results. (I think Prendrefeu saw it coming early on.) I wasn't particularly interested in the VeloNews take on the NAHBS, nor the well-known fact that most of the high-end frames are now made in huge Asian factories. Instead, what intriqued me is the nature of that mass-production which often times appears to be very labor and skill-intensive, aka 'hand-made'. Despite the large volume setting, the frames we so often covet are still made one at a time by skilled craftsmen working with apparent pride/devotion as seen firsthand by Elviento during his Falco project (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94417). I find his observations and experiences enlightening and devoid of some of the stereotypes and presumptions that plague those of us who have not had direct personal contact or insight into that production process and its implications.

So, IMHO this thread ran its course pages ago. Perhaps the moderators should shut it off, if possible...

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Wilier Cento Uno, 13.25 lbs / 6.01 kilograms
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=95887

This is along the lines of my thinking too. I would rather pay extra and look after my fellow kinsmen and to keep them in a job.

Looking at the unemployment rates across Europe (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/ta ... 1&plugin=1) and for other countries, perhaps the notion of outsourcing for cheaper labour to reduce production costs for the benefit of the consumer is a concept marketed by business executives to sanitise the laying off millions of blue collar workers for the sake of a performance bonus pay check.

Over and out.
I

Benefit of the consumer? Where in the heck did you get that from? Benefits are not in our pockets.

Well... the consumers do get slightly cheaper products. Very slight in most cases... but it is enough for the companies to both increase profits and lower the price a bit, so it happens with great regularity.

I don't want to get too deep into globalization and the effect it has had on many (most?) developed countries... but let's just say I'm starting to believe in global conspiracies.

Oh hush now, I'm just about to pop open another bag.

They just started referencing cars. I'm waiting until they reference WWII, then it'll get exciting!

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Exp001

Corvette C6 ZR1- Le Mans GTEPro class win

Viper GTS-R= "won class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, won the GT world title, won the 2000 Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona overall, and went on to win every race in the ALMS championship to take that title in its final racing season".

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"Sacred to the god Aesculapius"

I had my frame made in N.Italy. If the actual, brazin' torch in hand framebuilder had been from China, I wouldn't care a hoot. Many things are well made via mass production, incl starter bikes. If you want to get to Carnegie hall, practice man, practice, which means 3-4 years before 'is brazin' torch became pro, and sold as pro.