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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:24 pm 
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I was considering the fulcrum zeros or c24s...and ended up finding the c24s a lot cheaper than the zeros, so I went C24.

I've had zero problems with my c24s (knock on wood). They aren't boutique light, but they roll smooth, fast, and have taken some abuse without even needing truing. They aren't the best at anything (light, aero, strong), but they are damned good at everything IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Ive the c24s tubeless and swear by them. my friend has the fulcrums and swears by them. we've never ridden each other's wheels.. stupid us!
I was the first to have some problems with my wheels, to which I heard a lot of shit from him, but then again, he didint know the kind of potholes I hit before they spun a little untrue.. after truing they were as new again. just not sure they are really any lighter, as Ive seen pics here of them being a lot heavier than stated at Shimano's website


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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:51 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Campagnolo/Fulcrum make wheels superior to Shimano. There are a few special reasons for that (not just marketing).

All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke. It's the only safe-bet way to get the weight down below 1500g. This goes for both Fulcrum and Mavic.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:02 pm 
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That is absolute bollocks. Of tHe highest end wheels out there, no one of them uses alu spokes. The reason alu spokes became popular with wheel makers is that they can be machine built easier - the less resilient spoke makes it easier. That less resilient spoke also diminishes the ride quality significantly in my book.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Have to agree with lancejohnson. II've always found alu spokes harsh. Stout but harsh. Switching back and forth over the last two months on the commuter bike between Zondas (steel) and Shamal Ultras (alu) has made me realise what a huge impact on comfort spokes can have.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:16 pm 
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lancejohnson wrote:
That is absolute bollocks. Of tHe highest end wheels out there, no one of them uses alu spokes. The reason alu spokes became popular with wheel makers is that they can be machine built easier - the less resilient spoke makes it easier. That less resilient spoke also diminishes the ride quality significantly in my book.


You don't say.. steel spoke does ride better than an alu alloy, no doubt about that. You will also find top end spoke made out of steel too, CX-Ray. As used by custom wheelbuilders. The question posed here referred to aftermarket wheels. Most wheels in the high-end range of Mavic, Fulcrum using alloy spoke use alu spoke.

Before you point your blunt finger at nitpicking bollocks try and sharpen it first!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Gearjunkie wrote:
Sorry, OT a bit, but is it possible to convert Neutrons from Campag to Shimano/Sram freehub?

I know they come in both, but can they be converted?

Cheers in advance.

GJ



Most if not all Campagnolo wheels are available with either Campy or Shimano freehubs!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:15 pm 
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LOL Horse - You said that "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke." which is obviously false.

A reasonable inference from your post was that you believe alu spoke use to a be one reason why Fulcrum and Mavic wheels are better than Shimano.

Alu spoke use is to get the weight down and look cool. IME it also makes for a robust wheel. It also makes for inferior aerodynamics, handling, and - especially, inferior ride quality.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:04 pm 
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sawyer wrote:
LOL Horse - You said that "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke." which is obviously false.


Most if not All in the aftermarket range. Pick the range of wheel above entry level, I might refer to that range as "High End". Example: Everything below the Ksyrium Elite uses steel spokes. Ksyrium SL, I consider high-end, uses alu alloy spoke. SL drops around 100g or so, using an alu alloy spoke and other changes. You can only do so much for a given spec., so that's reason why recurring features across different brands.

sawyer wrote:
A reasonable inference from your post was that you believe alu spoke use to a be one reason why Fulcrum and Mavic wheels are better than Shimano.


No, did not say that at all. The actual reasons why better are others but I haven't gone into them.

sawyer wrote:
Alu spoke use is to get the weight down and look cool. IME it also makes for a robust wheel. It also makes for inferior aerodynamics, handling, and - especially, inferior ride quality.


That's debatable what one means by robust. What conditions of use etc. It's also arguable steel spoke makes for a more robust wheel due to inherent suspension in the wheel due to the properties of steel spoke. Same reason why ride quality diminishes with alu alloy spoke.
Indeed aero disadvantages only because alu alloy spoke is made wide bladed and often offset from symmetry during the build. Yes, not great for aerodynamics as aero particularly involves slightly crosswinds from side to side rather than full frontal. Even so, wide bladed spoke a full frontal profile is not that aerodynamic in an ideal wind tunnel situation.



As I said.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Oh come now Horse...

Your precise quote was, "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke. It's the only safe-bet way to get the weight down below 1500g. This goes for both Fulcrum and Mavic."

Actually, Mavic and Campagnolo both use steel spokes in their highest-end wheels. Zipp, Reynolds, DT, Shimano, Fulcrum, Tune, and every other top tier wheel manufacturer uses steel spokes - except when they use carbon like Lightweight, Corima, Reynolds, MadFibre, etc. In fact I can't think of a single 'best' wheel on the market with alu spokes.

As for being the only way to get under 1500g, that is certainly not true either - regardless of whether you are talking about alloy clinchers or carbon tubulars.

Again, Alu spokes are about ease of building for manufacturers who are looking to maximize profit margins. They are popular due to marketing and the fact that they rarely need to be trued because the spokes don't load/unload to the same extent that steel spokes do. Beyond a moderate weight savings over steel spokes, there is nothing better about Alu spokes on the road than steel. And in reality, the detrimental effect that alu spokes have on aerodynamics far outweighs saving 20g per wheel in a majority of riding conditions for most riders.

I'm not trying to point a blunt finger (whatever that means), I'm simply stating that your assertions are incorrect and providing evidence as to why.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Mr Bollocks, I note you've changed your avatar again.

lancejohnson wrote:
Oh come now Horse...

Your precise quote was, "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke. It's the only safe-bet way to get the weight down below 1500g. This goes for both Fulcrum and Mavic."

Actually, Mavic and Campagnolo both use steel spokes in their highest-end wheels. Zipp, Reynolds, DT, Shimano, Fulcrum, Tune, and every other top tier wheel manufacturer uses steel spokes - except when they use carbon like Lightweight, Corima, Reynolds, MadFibre, etc. In fact I can't think of a single 'best' wheel on the market with alu spokes.


D-Ace/Ultegra C24 are being discussed in this topic and both use steel spoke. They are also considered high-end. So I am obviously not talking about every wheel. Taking the point out of context. It's a moot issue as the point has been made.
If you wish to discuss specifics let's do that.


lancejohnson wrote:
As for being the only way to get under 1500g, that is certainly not true either - regardless of whether you are talking about alloy clinchers or carbon tubulars.

Again, Alu spokes are about ease of building for manufacturers who are looking to maximize profit margins. They are popular due to marketing and the fact that they rarely need to be trued because the spokes don't load/unload to the same extent that steel spokes do. Beyond a moderate weight savings over steel spokes, there is nothing better about Alu spokes on the road than steel. And in reality, the detrimental effect that alu spokes have on aerodynamics far outweighs saving 20g per wheel in a majority of riding conditions for most riders.

I'm not trying to point a blunt finger (whatever that means), I'm simply stating that your assertions are incorrect and providing evidence as to why.


1500g is a reasonable place to benchmark wheelset weight. Anything on either side can be discriminated between High-Spec and Entry-Level. Personally, I don't advocate an alu over steel spoke. OTOH I also consider a fair number of entry level products to be superior to their high-end counterparts. Horses for Courses if you will -- if you''ll pardon the pun.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:44 pm 
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horse wrote:
sawyer wrote:
LOL Horse - You said that "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke." which is obviously false.


Most if not All in the aftermarket range. Pick the range of wheel above entry level, I might refer to that range as "High End". Example: Everything below the Ksyrium Elite uses steel spokes. Ksyrium SL, I consider high-end, uses alu alloy spoke. SL drops around 100g or so, using an alu alloy spoke and other changes. You can only do so much for a given spec., so that's reason why recurring features across different brands.

sawyer wrote:
A reasonable inference from your post was that you believe alu spoke use to a be one reason why Fulcrum and Mavic wheels are better than Shimano.


No, did not say that at all. The actual reasons why better are others but I haven't gone into them.

sawyer wrote:
Alu spoke use is to get the weight down and look cool. IME it also makes for a robust wheel. It also makes for inferior aerodynamics, handling, and - especially, inferior ride quality.


That's debatable what one means by robust. What conditions of use etc. It's also arguable steel spoke makes for a more robust wheel due to inherent suspension in the wheel due to the properties of steel spoke. Same reason why ride quality diminishes with alu alloy spoke.
Indeed aero disadvantages only because alu alloy spoke is made wide bladed and often offset from symmetry during the build. Yes, not great for aerodynamics as aero particularly involves slightly crosswinds from side to side rather than full frontal. Even so, wide bladed spoke a full frontal profile is not that aerodynamic in an ideal wind tunnel situation.



As I said.


You don't even understand your own posts! Still less other people's!!
:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:50 pm 
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horse wrote:
sawyer wrote:
LOL Horse - You said that "All high end wheels use alu alloy spoke." which is obviously false.


Most if not All in the aftermarket range. Pick the range of wheel above entry level, I might refer to that range as "High End". Example: Everything below the Ksyrium Elite uses steel spokes. Ksyrium SL, I consider high-end, uses alu alloy spoke. SL drops around 100g or so, using an alu alloy spoke and other changes. You can only do so much for a given spec., so that's reason why recurring features across different brands.

sawyer wrote:
A reasonable inference from your post was that you believe alu spoke use to a be one reason why Fulcrum and Mavic wheels are better than Shimano.


No, did not say that at all. The actual reasons why better are others but I haven't gone into them.

sawyer wrote:
Alu spoke use is to get the weight down and look cool. IME it also makes for a robust wheel. It also makes for inferior aerodynamics, handling, and - especially, inferior ride quality.


That's debatable what one means by robust. What conditions of use etc. It's also arguable steel spoke makes for a more robust wheel due to inherent suspension in the wheel due to the properties of steel spoke. Same reason why ride quality diminishes with alu alloy spoke.
Indeed aero disadvantages only because alu alloy spoke is made wide bladed and often offset from symmetry during the build. Yes, not great for aerodynamics as aero particularly involves slightly crosswinds from side to side rather than full frontal. Even so, wide bladed spoke a full frontal profile is not that aerodynamic in an ideal wind tunnel situation.



As I said.


By the way, you some reading lessons boy ... my statement was that "IME it also makes for a robust wheel." That is not arguable; it's my experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:09 pm 
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horse wrote:
Mr Bollocks, I note you've changed your avatar again.


Thanks for noticing. I'm test driving them, looking for one that really suits me now. How do you like this one?

Anyway...

To the OP:

Both wheels are very good. Shimano and Fulcrum (and Campy if you decide to add that to the mix) make great wheels. Again, never been impressed with Mavic, so I would give those a pass. At this level I think it comes down to details, and I think Shimano have the details of their C24 wheels well sorted. Fantastic hubs, steel spokes, very good QC and design on the rims, solid build quality, great ride quality - unless you have a color preference that outweighs those things, I think the DA wheel is a great choice...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Location: Triange, NC
Garret C wrote:
I'm looking for a set of regular everyday wheels. I already have a 38mm deep carbon wheels but seeing as I'm doing alot of coastal cycles these days I want a low enough profile wheel to avoid cross wind/gust etc. Im 5ft11, 175lbs and strong enough so the wheels need to be stiff enough. My budget is around €6-700, and I'm between the Fulcrum Racing Zero Dark Label, Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 C24 and Mavic Ksyrium SL. Can any recommand any of these or provide any feedback/faults with them. Thanks in advance...!



You not going to do better than the Shimano C24 wheels, the low spoke count, superior construction and lively feel will have you losing sleep at night thinking about saddling up again. I've ridden mine in 30 mph winds for hours on the Florida coast and elsewhere and they are virtually unfazed.


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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:57 pm 


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