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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Electronics, all practical pros and cons set aside, do really feel very disconnected from the bike. I like the analog feel, I very much enjoy actually feeling the cable being pulled thru it's housing, I love to feel with my fingertips how I move the derailleur from cog to cog. It's actually one of the million little amazing thrills of riding a bike... To really feel your bike, to be one with this machine. I don't want my bike to do this for me when I command it to do so with the push of a button, I want to take full part in the experience...

If you one by one start removing these little tactile thrills, what are you left with? I believe there is a cognitive perspective that is lost in this development...

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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:11 pm 
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DMF, you want analog? Go to friction shifting. Then you can feel your way onto each cog, not cheat with indexing.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:16 pm 
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I have friction shifting on the FD of my CycloCross (Sram bar end shifters), and it's freakin' great! Much prefer the feel to index-shifting.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:21 pm 
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In 3 years of Di2 ownership, not once have I missed arsing about with rear mech cable tensions and indexing that is ok on the top sprocket but not on the bottom (or vice versa), I've also never missed a cable that was so gummed up with sticky sugary deposits from the drink drips to the point that it would never reach the bottom sprocket because the friction of the sugar was greater than the tension of the cable. I fit it 3 years ago and its works exactly the same to this day.

So for me, once Di2 was proven (in 2009/10) it was never a wise choice anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:37 pm 
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DMF wrote:
I have friction shifting on the FD of my CycloCross (Sram bar end shifters), and it's freakin' great! Much prefer the feel to index-shifting.
Ha, it barely matters in the front, although it's easy to see merits of friction shifting there. If you're serious about liking analog, then use friction rear shifting.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:53 pm 
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weightySteve. If you're having problems shifting mechanical gears, I bet it's not the gears that are to blame, it's no doubt the mechanic. And as for sugar on cables, there are plastic sleeves that thread over the exposed cable, Avid amongst others make these.

HammerTime2. Great idea, will you make me a latest generation Shimano STI-shaped brake/shifter control where I can reach the friction shifter from both the hoods and drops with similar ergonomics as an STI?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:05 pm 
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DMF, if you want full part in the experience, then you should be prepared to give up some of the luxuries of STI to which you have become accustomed.

But anyhow, you can get Retroshift.
Bike Rumor article on Retroshift with video demonstration
Weight Weenies thread on Retroshift


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Friction shifting is the way forward as you can run what ever componetry (with in some limits) you like. I currently have a friction shifter operating a 9 speed cassette and have a 10 speed waiting for then that wear outs. With a free hub change I could run 11 speed campag with a ultegra mech I might try that. I really like fricton shifting it is easy, quick (when you get used to it), cheap and very reliable.

Thats the main restriction I don't like with electronic groups is the restriction of compatible components which is how obselance will creep in. If you have the funds though that is not a problem as you can always move to the next system and why not if you can.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:31 pm 
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I know about retroshift, but it seems like poor ergonomics to me. Anyhow, in all seriousness I think 10spd friction shifting suffers in lack of accuracy. And as I said, the tactile feeling of the mechanical shifting is just one of the million little things, and it really doesn't even just boil down to something as basic as the simpler the better. The sensation of the shifter, cable and derailleur being joined is still there, with or without a ratchet mechanism.

I like the feeling of fixed hubs, but I also like the feeling of a freewheels engagement. They are both tactile connections with your body, just in different ways. Sort of the same with friction vs indexing.

What I mean here, is that feeling the actual mechanics of the shifter itself, is just as much part of the experience as feeling the derailleur move thru the cogs. That's taking it ALL in.

But with electronics, that link is broken, all you sense is a plastic button connected to nothing.

"To change gears, press any key..."

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Hi,

Friction shifters are for "control freaks"...... like me. :lol:

@DMF: I suppose you do not run a car with an automatic gearbox either?

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:02 am 
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Well I do, but it's a van and it's for work. If I could ever (God willing) afford a Ferrari it would not have electronic paddles behind the steering wheel though, that's for certain :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:05 am 
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Quote:
If you're having problems shifting mechanical gears,


I am not, and never will again, that was the point of my post :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:30 am 
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I had an auto car once. I like the car so much I had a perfectly good autobox pulled out and a manual put in its place. It was somuch better to drive after that. So friction shifting 9 speed seems accurate enough. I have yet to try ten speed on firction shifters but I think it just a matter of getting used to it.

Next there will automatic electronic shifting. There will a power meter somewhere and bike will know your current gear, speed, cadance and power output and it will shift for you. That's a scary prospect but I am sure some will like it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:40 am 
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Automatic shifting on bikes has been available for several years.
The LandRider with AutoShift. There simply is no finer bicycle available, at any price.
http://www.landriderbikes.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:03 am 
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Landridde, 399 for the top of the range deluxe autoshift, looks very promissing !

Now ..for elec shifting.
I havent ridding any of them so, have riddin mainly campy in the last 10 years, record and curremtly sr 11 speed.

I was lurcking on ww a couple of weeks ago and some fell had touble with a ultegra rear derailleur( electric) stuck in the middle of the cassette and would not kive any were, people suggested he was to go to the local bikeshop, they could check the derailleur with a computer to see if the component was faulty.

Reading this made me look at the prices for a single rear derailleur, there always been great offers on groupsets but single parts parst are often not tbat cheap, i think i found 300$ front drerailleurs !

I dont see the value of electric shifting, its heavy, expensive and ugly besides that i think it taks the simplicity out of cycling.

Im a diesel mechanic, computers didn't excist in my work 15 years a go.
I resently sold my 1968 holden van, it did not had a single ecm, it had a carburettor and that was it.
I know drive a 07 saab instead its engine is computer controlled i can see more gas but u will only put as much diesel in as the computer allows it to.
As a result i do 5 liters to a100 km on long drives, its quite its comfortable ,if there is something wrong the obd will tell me.

This new car the computer has made for lots of improvement ( as well as being disconected from the drive) its better for the envoirment, it cheaper to run. So on so fort.ill pay premium for maintenance but get that back out of fuel cost.

Back to bikes: i cant not see how ( and maybee i should ride an elec group first) how an electric groupset can benefit me the same way as computer engine management, although they can cock up the same way and put me in limb mode and make me stuck in one gear, they can also charge me premium for parts and tools.

So to me: i hope one day all elec groupsets do the same as the mavic's groupsets and disappear !(;


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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:03 am 


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