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 Post subject: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:09 am 
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Well, this is not one of those "which should I pick" questions.

With the full knowledge that both are reputable and successful manufacturers in their own right and both make very nice bikes loved by many, I sometimes can't help wondering why the Helix twisted tubes don't seem to be get hammered while Pinarello's curves gets much more criticism.

Is it because of Pina's 950g unpainted claim? Or Pinarello's much bigger hype in its marketing strategy while Lynskey adopts a more craftsman style strategy?

Regardless, my personal view is the twist or the curves both serve little practical purpose.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Pinarello v. Lynskey
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:09 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:13 am 
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Both are completely unnecessary. Lynskey has a more boutique feel to the brand. Pinarello, as a tour frame provider and with such a heralded heritage, gets the limelight because pretty much every other tour frame is lighter


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:21 am 
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elviento wrote:
Is it because of Pina's 950g unpainted claim?


Yes. Apparently that claim was measured based on a frame without a BB shell, without any hangers, without races for the headset in the headtube, and possibly without a lot more. Let's not even get started on that anchor of a fork.

elviento wrote:
Or Pinarello's much bigger hype in its marketing strategy while Lynskey adopts a more craftsman style strategy?


Yes.

elviento wrote:
Regardless, my personal view is the twist or the curves both serve little practical purpose.


Yes. And we've already discussed aesthetics as a matter of personal opinion.

Also see:
-Location of production vs. price.
-Claims vs. reality.
-Lynskey offers full custom geometries while you're at it. Pinarello is a pinarell-no.
-For the price? Ti is durable, possibly a frame that you can pass down to your children, their grandchildren, and onwards. The carbon backed by heavy paint and hype? Less likely.
-Aside from the questionable 'wavy' style of the frames, Pinarello has made no technological advances. Asymmetrical frames? Done before well them. Aero? Please. Glitter? Ummm... At least Lynskey isn't claiming innovation on anything more than the twist, which we're going to mark as an 'even' with the claim of Pinarello = does it work or is it hype?

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:54 am 
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Lynskey claims the twisted tube is torsionally superior to more traditional designs. Forgive my ignorance, but does Pinarello actually have a theory for the wavy fork and stays?
And seriously, GLITTER HIGHLIGHTS :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:53 am 
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Pinarello is never short of theories.

As for torsional strength of the twisted tubes, if you have watched the episode of Top Gear where Mammond organized the carbon v metal twisting test, a twisted shaft is actually the state of "failure". So it's just beyond me.

bricky21 wrote:
Lynskey claims the twisted tube is torsionally superior to more traditional designs. Forgive my ignorance, but does Pinarello actually have a theory for the wavy fork and stays?
And seriously, GLITTER HIGHLIGHTS :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:24 am 
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Specialized are adamant that the pronounced curvature of top tube and seat stays is critical to instilling ride comfort whilst retaining stiffness on the Roubaix. Yet there's little animosity aimed at them.

Pinarello continuously gets great feedback from happy purchasers whilst being attacked buy impecunious internet warriors who most likely have never slung a leg over such a prestigious piece of kit.

Now if someone could scientifically demonstrate that curvature and layup of carbon strands have no impact on ride quality we may be able to ridicule Pinarello with some authority. Until then, it simply comes across as the rantings of well jeal wannabees.


Last edited by airwise on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:42 am 
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You guys have to think more abstactly... It's not only marketing. Yes, all these curves have little or nothing to do with performance. But they follow an expressionist concept. It's like Zaha Hadid's buildings. All these folds, curves and ribs have nothing to do with functionality (in fact they are against functionality in a sence). But that is expressionist architecture-design. You may like or not but you have to accept it as an aesthetic trend at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:52 am 
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airwise wrote:
Pinarello continuously gets great feedback from happy purchasers whilst being attacked buy impecunious internet warriors who most likely have never slung a leg over such a prestigious piece of kit.


I've ridden quite a few over the past few years. Extensive rides, climbing, flats, covered. Never impressed. :noidea:
I bet I'm not alone... but the folks you are referring to as not liking the product are also those who have not purchased the product. See the association?

You do know that there is a psychological tendency for humans to pronounce a false-satisfaction in an object, be it product or person, despite its failures or inadequecy due to the amount of money they paid for the item or events relating to that person? Conspicuous consumption is very much related.

Anyway, we can go on and on about Pinarello but that's been covered before ad nausea, no?

KGT has pointed out a significant thing in regards to stylistic moves, and it is a very true statement. Perhaps though in regards to such a functional machine that is a bicycle - a road bicycle in particular, among the most efficient human powered machines available - that a designer would intentionally add stylistic and non-functional intentions to it is the part that irks and irritates many. Adding stylistic, egregiously non-functional moves to such a beautifully functional and efficient machine? Ugh.

Now, if Pinarello was producing curvy, stylistic city-bikes or Dutch-style bikes, then their design intentions may have a bit more traction. On a road bike though? Not so much. On a bike that is marketed as an efficient, svelte race machine? Even less so.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:05 am 
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So, prend, we are cutting Lynskey a bit more slack thanks to the durability of ti, their more realistic weight claims, offers more cutom geometry, and US(?) origin?

Anyway, my purpose is less on Pina or even the Lynskey brand and more on the twisted tube design. I just want to make sure I am not missing anything from an engineering perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:14 am 
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I'm probably dating myself here... but anyone remember the Pinarello from the 80s? I remember lusting after their SLX frames. Their craftsmanship and frames were beyond reproach then.

Now? Wavy bits, audacious claims, 'false' advertising... they've changed quite a bit haven't they?

Oh, and to stay on topic... the Lynskey Helix tubes certainly look cool. But I wonder if they really do help? If twisting the tube does improve torsional rigidity, wouldn't it only be in one direction? i.e. different characteristics if torsional forces applied "with the twist" opposed to against the twist? Anyone with more science care to chime in?

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:29 am 
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elviento wrote:
So, prend, we are cutting Lynskey a bit more slack thanks to the durability of ti, their more realistic weight claims, offers more cutom geometry, and US(?) origin?


All of that and that Lynskey's marketing strategies don't involve placing their designs in every magazine on the newstand?
Probably.

The engineering question is a good one, and I hope that some of the engineers who frequent WW would chime in... until then we may conclude that the curves or twists in either Pinarello or Lynskey are simply stylistic moves despite what a marketing department would have us believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Location: Triange, NC
Deforming metal can alter or change its strength properties as it alters the crystalline structure within the metal. Its basically a form of "work hardening", as its called in the steel venue. So hammering, bending, twisting, etc., can increase the strength. But too much is not a good thing as it compromises the ductility and the metal will become brittle. This is a bit simplified and I'm not an expert but, I do know metal properties can be changed by manipulating the metal.

Of course metal can be work hardened (so to speak) then made into round tubes. Heat treating brings in another aspect of manipulation for attaining desired hardness and toughness properties. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:11 pm 
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I have been on a Dogma this season. There is no doubt that it is heavy and really looks funny, but it is stiff as hell, too.

There appears to be some truth to the whole 'asymmetric' thing, as well. Whilst climbing out of the saddle, I notice that my normal 'swing' of the bike (which is accustomed to accommodate the typical differences between the drive-side and non-drive side stiffness with a slight 'dwell' on one side) is out of sync. I thought that to be a simple, elegant example of the design at work.

One thing is for sure, the old adage: 'race on Sunday, sell on Monday' goes double in the Wprld Tour! You can chart the history of bike trends in my collection. I guess that is part of the fun and attraction of the sport. I, for one, am pretty keen to hit the road every season. I am just as excited to get the McLaren Venge on the road as I was my first six-speed Colnago!


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:05 pm 
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The biggest problem with the Lynskey frames is that Boone Tech no longer makes the perfect crank to suit them.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:05 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Pinarello v. Lynskey
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:43 pm 
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eric01 wrote:
but anyone remember the Pinarello from the 80s? I remember lusting after their SLX frames. Their craftsmanship and frames were beyond reproach then.

Now? Wavy bits, audacious claims, 'false' advertising... they've changed quite a bit haven't they?
Pinarello has a well-earned and established heritage, which they've now cheapened and cashed in on with sleazy marketing. Rapha, on the other hand, used sleazy marketing to create a faux-heritage (with Chinese characteristics).


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