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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:42 am 
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Well said Ahillock! I have believed for some time that the USADA going past the 8 years should set the precedent for every doper in cycling, not just LA. As a result I would like to see RH get at least a 6 month ban (for working with authorities and admitting it bla bla bla) but more proffered would be a full 13 months for a first time offense. Do people still hate LA so much that they want different punishments dished out inconsistently within cycling?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:04 am 
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Tinea Pedis wrote:

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/31/remo ... -hesjedal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

are why people are upset.


Thanks for sharing that article TP. :thumbup: Just finally got home and was able to sit down and read it.

Really is remarkable how Garmin/JV try and play this 'transparent' theme when really it is in name only. Had his riders take down LA in a deal to spare RH which was suppose to be hush hush from public if it wasn't for Rasmussen to break the news. JV was using the same type of tactics that so many are upset with LA for doing in regards to publicly calling out and humiliating those that spoke out against them/their riders. What is with all of these back room deals in the support in regards to doping. Why didn't USADA reveal RH? Bunch of bs if you ask me. This sport is still dirty, just becoming more and more politically oriented. The hypocrisy runs deep in this sport.


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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:04 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:06 am 
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Like I was saying... the Tilford post nails it. Love how that guy tells it like it is and isn't just some anonymous Twitter alias.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:43 am 
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LOL

Not everyone was shocked by the revelations, and some commentators were openly skeptical. According to Phil Liggett, a veteran reporter of the Tour, “I don’t believe it was widespread. Maybe the odd cheater here and there, but that’s it. The vast majority of the pro peloton is, and has always been, squeaky clean.”


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:52 am 
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Ahillock wrote:
btompkins0112 wrote:
Jeez fellas.....do we need to act like a bunch of women all the time?

FACT: Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one and they all stink so quit acting like yours smells like roses.

Pretty much everyone doped in the late 90's, early 2000's, even [insert your favorite rider here]. These dudes are athletes that compete for themselves and their own livelihood/success. Let's not make this something it's not.....people deserve second chances. They were not all a bunch of LAs. Good people make bad decisions too and it is short sighted to throw every ex-doper out on their a** so quit the self righteous, smug, holier than thou comments. If you were in their position you may have made the same choice.



Stop being such a pushover and being impressed with a rider who admitted to doping in the past (how convenient it was past 8 years) and all of a sudden stopped because they thought it was bad. Utter bullocks and bullsh@t. They are pulling the fleece over your head and you believe it. This is NOT a credible confession. This was a, oops you caught me and someone leaked the beans that weren't suppose to be leaked. Only admit after you get caught, otherwise deny deny deny and talk about how the sport is so clean now. The Garmin team is run by a former doper and full of former dopers. Not sure I can even believe in Ryder's Giro win at this point. Why would I be that naive and think that was clean.

I absolutely despise how certain riders that have been doping and been busted/admit to afterwards, get a free pass because they are 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' However certain dopers (LA, Ricco, DiLuca, Rasmussen...etc.) are hated because they aren't 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' Ryder should get the same punishment that LA. That is one thing that stinks like a outhouse within cycling, the disproportionate punishments that vary across the sport. The punishments need to be universal and consistent. Regardless of how big of a star you are or how well liked you are.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:34 am 
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Ahillock wrote:
Stop being such a pushover and being impressed with a rider who admitted to doping in the past (how convenient it was past 8 years) and all of a sudden stopped because they thought it was bad. Utter bullocks and bullsh@t. They are pulling the fleece over your head and you believe it. This is NOT a credible confession. This was a, oops you caught me and someone leaked the beans that weren't suppose to be leaked. Only admit after you get caught, otherwise deny deny deny and talk about how the sport is so clean now. The Garmin team is run by a former doper and full of former dopers. Not sure I can even believe in Ryder's Giro win at this point. Why would I be that naive and think that was clean.

I absolutely despise how certain riders that have been doping and been busted/admit to afterwards, get a free pass because they are 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' However certain dopers (LA, Ricco, DiLuca, Rasmussen...etc.) are hated because they aren't 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' Ryder should get the same punishment that LA. That is one thing that stinks like a outhouse within cycling, the disproportionate punishments that vary across the sport. The punishments need to be universal and consistent. Regardless of how big of a star you are or how well liked you are.
While I agree with you in the first paragraph of your post, I have to take issue with your second. LA and to the others are not only serial offenders but also, at least in LA's case, manipulated, coerced & bullied all & sundry in the course of concealing their doping. That in itself is what brought about the punishment LA received.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:54 am 
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toronto-rider wrote:
IF someone who thinks that he should be banned, how do you explain all the people that doped during that era, are now (I hope) riding clean and make millions of $. Do you expect them just to come forward and say I doped.
I am talking about Boonen, Cancelara, Evans, Horner etc. They all doped during that time, but have not been outed so why should they come forward.


Cause at least they don't go around saying all the time "we're riding clean" or "we want a clean cycling" or again "we're against doping" which at the end of the day start to sound like the fairtale "the boy who cried worlf".

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:11 pm 
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You can see why other sports just brush doping under the carpet and get on with business as usual when you consider the amount of negativity towards cycling in the media and bickering going on even between die hard fans and pros/ ex pros with very little to show for it. Other sports don't have half the hassle cycling does despite cycling's good intentions. Whinging and being outraged is fine but what are the solutions? There is a definite lack of action and solutions for this problem at this point in time...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Its because it gives such a huge performance gain in cycling. In other sports you might be able to kick abit harder, run a little longer or swing that golf bat faster but if you have poor technique then youll still suck. If you cant hit the ball or can only kick it 30 yards off target youll never be pro no matter how strong you are. The 10% increase you might see in strength and speed is less important in other games but in cycling being strongest is the game. More power in cycling=better almost unequivocally, any dumb dumb can learn to stay upright on a bike eventually.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Whoop, that's a bit oversimplified, eh?

Anyway, so what y'all want to do is take any rider that admits to doping for one month, one year, 6 years, etc. in the past decade, and apply the same ban to them? Even if you don't believe that they really only doped for one year, there is still the inconvenient fact that there may not be any proof to support your belief.

I am much more interested in there being pro cycling to watch for the foreseeable future than making examples of every Tom, Dick and Harry that doped in the early 2000s. Let's do a hard stop and say of you get caught going forward, and we are going to try our damnedest to catch you, you will be banned for life. Period.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:43 pm 
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shoopdawoop, that is a huge over simplification. Do you think the giant American Footballers get that size without additional banned help? Athletics must be 99% skill and only have a minor endurance/ speed/ power components then??? Doping doesn't just need to just improve endurance and recovery which is what we as cycling fans tend to think of doping as, there are tons of sports where being a bit fresher, being stronger or more powerful are a massive advantage... especially when there is minimal chance of getting caught.

Anyway as BT says, what is outing the dopers of the past after the statue of limitations has passed actually achieving? Getting tough on anyone caught going forwards has to happen but what is to say people will be dumb enough to get caught. How many of these people we are hearing about from the 90's and 00's actually failed tests.Hmm...lots of problems but I don't know of any decent solutions going forwards


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Yes, I am sure RH stopped doping 10 years ago and has never doped since. Never. Ever. Because you know he had a change of heart. A change of heart would have been to admit fault then and get out of the sport because he felt guilty about taking away money from those riding clean. Which professional athlete starts doping, improves significantly physically, starts having better results and then out if nowhere decides to quit? Really think he won the Giro clean? I use to think that way in cycling but have since learned not to be duped again.

Not to mention new data supporting the fact that there are long term benefits to doping, even 'short term' doping that can last for years afterwards (even possibly up to 10 years later).

Don't be duped by RH or any other cyclist. As the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun. :beerchug:


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:54 pm 
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ultimobici wrote:
Ahillock wrote:
I absolutely despise how certain riders that have been doping and been busted/admit to afterwards, get a free pass because they are 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' However certain dopers (LA, Ricco, DiLuca, Rasmussen...etc.) are hated because they aren't 'likeable' or a 'nice guy.' Ryder should get the same punishment that LA. That is one thing that stinks like a outhouse within cycling, the disproportionate punishments that vary across the sport. The punishments need to be universal and consistent. Regardless of how big of a star you are or how well liked you are.
While I agree with you in the first paragraph of your post, I have to take issue with your second. LA and to the others are not only serial offenders but also, at least in LA's case, manipulated, coerced & bullied all & sundry in the course of concealing their doping. That in itself is what brought about the punishment LA received.

Disagree. The punishment for a doping offence is supposed to be two years. It's not supposed to be based on how good or bad someone is as a person. For me, Hillock got it exactly right. The six month punishments that others received is completely wrong IMO. I don't disagree that LA behaved badly. But if you take drugs you're no better or worse than anyone else. And as TP pointed in his link, the hypocrisy is sickening.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:36 pm 
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There are sports where there is surely a rampant doping.

Take tennis for example

6 hours matchs of high intensity rallies, anyone who has played a bit of tennis knows how high your bpms go on a continuos end to end court running and ball hitting on hard surfaces.

And the women's tennis ? It's a joke, the brothers Williams are stronger than many men.

Yet no one is never caught. You never ever hear about doping in tennis.

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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:36 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Im not saying it doesnt help in other sports, I just think doping is more harmful to cycling than other sports because of its direct effect on the requirements.

Im saying football is 10% running, 10 % strength, 20% hands, 30% having good field vision and 30 % team tactics and knowledge of the game. There are certainly some guys who are just bruisers but their technique and skills are still so important compared to raw power and strength.

Cycling breaks down more like 30% watt/kg, 30 % watts/cda, 20% staying upright and 20% team and gear. A much greater part of being a pro cyclist is simply being able to hit the numbers.

The gains to be made by doping in cycling are greater because its such a larger part of the breakdown of importance and that is why it cannot be allowed even a little bit in cycling. It helps in other sports but raw physicality in cycling is so important.

Always reprehensible to dope; but our sport lends itself to it, is tailored for it and if one person is able to get away with it they will likely be dominant unlike in other sports.

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