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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:38 am 
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Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Pretty shocked by the ignorance and vitriol directed at Pantani and the Giro, especially here.

Yeh he took EPO like everyone from that generation did. Good luck finding any clean riders from around that time.

As for his drug-related death, it was tragic and he was the victim here. Can't believe people are judging the guy for this.

He was a fantastic rider who inspired many, many people and is rightly revered as an inspirational yet tragic figure.

But apparently not here, where he is an EPO coke-head. Jesus.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:27 am 
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Well he was definitely an idol to modern day cyclists...like Ricco.

My main beef is that it was his downfall when thrown out of the Giro that started his spiral that ended in his death....and now they're going to wrap themselves in his legend. THAT is f'ed up.

As for uppers in the 60's...those guys rode about 10x the competitive miles than modern day Froome's. I'd give them a pass on that one.


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Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:27 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:38 am 
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Location: France
I also find the vitriol directed towards Pantani to be very distasteful. Like it or not the guy was mentally vulnerable and found himself in the doping era of 90's and 00's cycling. Where as the likes of Armstrong exploited the culture in the 90's, others like Pantani and Vandenbroucke were victims of it.

I will never forget watching some of Pantani's exploits in the Giro or the '98 Tour. We celebrate dopers like Tommy Simpson but are not allowed to do the same for Pantani, hypocrisy at it's worst.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:57 am 
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Location: Atlanta, GA, US
Using the word "victim" to describe Pantani, Vandenbroucke or even Simpson is an insult to real victims everywhere.

Honoring Pantani in the next Giro is also messed up. Maybe we should honor Armstrong in the next TDF.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Well, ok, Pantani was a doper and that's it. But then by the same token if we cannot respect him because of that, whom _can_ we respect of the past cycling greats? Can you guys expressing your displeasure at Italians honouring Pantani just give us a definitive list with names of past champions who can be respected and honoured? With some explanations why for each name?

As to idolizing and revering - the only person I idolize and revere is my grandmother for the pancakes she used to cook for me.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:09 pm 
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HammerTime2 wrote:
shoopdawoop wrote:
That bike is dope.


That's just a GF with canti mounts and a hole drilled thru for the rear cable, no? :noidea:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Honestly, I don't really respect anyone in professional cycling anymore. Well, maybe except for Marianne Vos. To me, men's cycling is like fake American wrestling; it can be good entertainment, but (most) everyone knows it is fake.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:34 pm 
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You can't be surprised at the reaction, though, can you? It is pretty funny how different the 'official' reaction is for Lance.

Even my 5-year-old gets the problem with doping. After spending so much time with the riders, he noted, with a bit of surprise, that: "...they're just men! Even Sagan!". All the rules in the world won't change that...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:36 pm 
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fa63 wrote:
Honestly, I don't really respect anyone in professional cycling anymore. Well, maybe except for Marianne Vos. To me, men's cycling is like fake American wrestling; it can be good entertainment, but (most) everyone knows it is fake.


I would agree with you, but at the end of the day, doping or not, these guys are gutting themselves on the road. I don't care how many drugs you take, you still have to push yourself through the suffering if you want to win. They just happen to be going a lot faster, farther, and higher.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:42 pm 
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oh boy, the good doper vs. bad doper discussion again :beerchug:

i'm only shocked, given the present state of affairs, some idiot actually pulled this remembering Pantani idea through. i think we can all agree that Pantani's cult is mainly a local thing, but i suppose a KOM would be enough to honour him, without provoking andy controversies

i'm pretty sure Lance's having a well deserved laugh reading about it anyway

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Location: UK & WEST AFRICA
At the end of the day, you either accept or reject the results. Just put an asterisk against the whole lot because that’s been the reality.
The Giro has the Cima Coppi despite him stating he took drugs almost always. Bobet was implicated. Anquetil was open about it. Hinault refused dope tests. Merckx was nabbed, so was Gimondi, Altig (who Simpson beat in 65 at the Worlds), Motta, Adorni. The list is endless. The Tour introduced its own drug tests in 1966 and the riders went on strike; the riders view being that they had an entitlement to get through it.
Personally, I have no problem in accepting Pantani, I feel pity for him that it drove him over the top to what was effectively a drawn out suicide. He considered that he took the rap for all the others that were at it.
For the same reasons I will also accept all the results because nearly every winner and contender was nabbed later or heavily implicated. Yes, of course it’s not right, but where do you draw the line? Someone gets a lifetime ban because he’s an arsehole, another fesses up later and gets a 6 month ban. Are they both not equally guilty?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Location: Denmark
tymon_tm wrote:

i'm pretty sure Lance's having a well deserved laugh reading about it anyway


Spot on! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:33 pm 
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tymon_tm wrote:
i think we can all agree that Pantani's cult is mainly a local thing, .....

A "local thing" like only the inhibitants of the planet "Earth" ? :lol:

I respect and admire them all for the inspiration and entertainment they have provided.
But I don't idolize any of them.
Who is to say who is more inspirational ...a guy naturally born with a huge lung capacity and a hematocrit of 50, or a "normal guy" who drives himself nearly to literal death yet still doesn't quite win ?
Remember that there has always been "doping", and in a certain sense, I always felt like if they were so driven to win that they would risk death from amphetamine overdose, then that also inspired a bit of "respect" for their single-minded dedication. Then there is the other kind of "doping" that became popular that started out as "science that allows our bodies to produce more power safely".
I guess I just can't work up a lot of "judgmentality emotion" on this issue.

That is also why cycling is, to me. a participation sport, not a "watch and be a fan sport". Although I consider myself a fan also. Cycling does have a certain "pro wrestling" component and a lot of races are fixed or at least "negotiated". But you have to have the power to be near the front to wield any power in the negotiations.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:53 pm 
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MattSoutherden wrote:
2014 Giro to honour Marco Pantani

Winner will have 60% hematocrit, be on EPO, Amphetamines, and ride all climbs out of the saddle on the big ring? :noidea:

Italian cycling just impressed everyone on Sunday. Now they make themselves look stupid.
The Giro already announced in September 2012 (shortly before the USADA reasoned decision on Armstrong was released) that it was honoring Pantani in the 2013 Giro. Nothing new to see here folks. Get back about your business.
On September 20, 2012 in 2013 Giro - Galibier stage confirmed (!?), HammerTime2 wrote:
Four kilometres from the summit the stage will pass a monument to Marco Pantani, the 1998 Tour de France winner. The monument marks the place where Pantani attacked to seal his overall victory that year in the French Grand Tour.
The monument(s) should be where Pantani took the massive doses of EPO which sealed his victory, or maybe the Amgen factory where it was manufactured.


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Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:53 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Location: Hungary
The big difference between amrstorng and Pantani, is not in their nationality and not in their palmares...

Is it really that hard to see, really?


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