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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:45 am 
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It's easy to take the pessimistic side of things on something that fans have been burned on in the past. People like to present themselves as intelligent and not easily fooled so playing the dope card is a safe bet.

I understand the scepticism and I guess I share JV's perspective but still why not just enjoy it for what it is now? I think some like the dope drama and innuendo more than the racing itself.

I also can't believe people are calling this boring with the racing we've had over the past few days and with the stage route today. Maybe check out the ashes?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:06 am 
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About Froome's bike change: why did they take a bike of the roof of the car and why didn't they put a mechanic along the road? That would have saved time.
Stuart O'Grady did so in Paris-Roubaix a few years ago: swiching a bike with regular wheels to a bike with Zipps between 2 cobblestrokes just before the finish (and then crashing a few meters further).

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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:06 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:07 am 
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Apparently Sky have released Froome's data to L'Equipe.

There has been a preliminary analysis, but my French is... bad.

I expect there will be a lot more on this shortly.

Edit:-

Here's a link, parlez-vous français?
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Sky-joue-la-transparence/386574

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Last edited by Tapeworm on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:15 am 
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It sounds more like it's just the bio-passport. I don't believe he's manipulating red blood cells, IF there is something, it's more of the designer variety IMHO


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:16 am 
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Roel W wrote:
About Froome's bike change: why did they take a bike of the roof of the car and why didn't they put a mechanic along the road? That would have saved time.
Stuart O'Grady did so in Paris-Roubaix a few years ago: swiching a bike with regular wheels to a bike with Zipps between 2 cobblestrokes just before the finish (and then crashing a few meters further).


It's not allowed to do this in a TT. The bike has to be on the car.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:21 am 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Apparently Sky have released Froome's data to L'Equipe.

There has been a preliminary analysis, but my French is... bad.

I expect there will be a lot more on this shortly.

Edit:-

Here's a link, parlez-vous français?
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Sky-joue-la-transparence/386574


It says it will be published in the L'Equippe paper today.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:28 am 
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There's already a short debrief on it online.

Basically L'Equipe states that their expert, Fred Grappe, took a look at the data which covers 2011 through the Ventoux stage. He writes/states, briefly, something like "His performance data is consistent with his profile" and "he has an exceptional power that he can develop over 5 minutes that gives him reserve power over other competitors" (rough translation)...

Interestingly, one of the comments points out that Fred Grappe is not the most reliable source of reality in analysis: Grappe claimed that Lance's 2005-2006 campaign looked legit, too, and we know how that turned out. What I did find on Grappe (a quick search) was this: http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5192 Wherein, by the way, Grappe claims that Landis' victory on the Morzine in 2006 was due to "an American feat of aerodynamic positioning" Grappe also argued that Lance's performances were possible without doping. The more I searched the more it looked like Grappe has a history of poor judgement when analyzing data.* There's actually a pretty funny reaming of Grappe and his shoddy analysis over here: http://www.onlinetri.com/phpBB2/viewtop ... &start=105 (yes, a thread from 2006!!)

You know how the rest of the story goes.

Which brings us back to now. Grappe analyzing Froome and saying everything is just fine.
Sound familiar?









*crickets*

Anyway, if Grappe is indeed the biomechanical expert for FDJ, that might explain why FDJ hasn't had the results it has the potential to get.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:39 am 
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I don't see any data yet.
As far as I can read, the data has been released to L'Equipe just this morning..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:39 am 
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KB wrote:
I'm British, but it's difficult to understand this thing about nationality. When Froome opens his mouth he speaks with a South African accent, and it's doubtful he's ever spent much time in Blighty, so it could be construed as a flag of convenience.

We also need to understand where British sport has come from. In the 96 Olympics, we won 1 gold medal. At the last 2 Olympics, it’s approx. 20 times better. The UK Govt put money into sport and reaped the benefits, but it’s about results. But even then, people’s prejudices will never be assuaged judging by some of the rants on here.


Actually I do kind of understand Froome´s "Britishness" - my wife was born and brought up in Kenya but is, by her own account 100% Italian. Lots of Little Britain's still living in Karen.

Don't lets get started on UK Govt using an investment in sport to drive a feelgood factor. Ick. I do get the idea that spotting underfunded Sports (eg TRACK cycling) was the right route to get good returns on Govt investment but would suggest that Skys funding of road cycling, and the marginal gains philosophy, was altogether less likely to be the deciding factor in performances (" Froome was so fast up Ventoux cos hes got his own pillow to sleep on"). Previous teams also had chunks of cash.

The point was just that although we all agree nothing can be agreed, the level of "doubt" - and hence the interpretation of times, performances etc - is definitely polarized along national lines.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:53 am 
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The hits keep coming.
Grappe also analyzed Mr. Armstrong's power profiles here: http://centre-velo2max.fr/WordPress3/20 ... armstrong/
Saw nothing wrong, praised Armstrong for his cadence and power abilities.


But, back to Froome: is it not strange that we're seeing power data from 2011 to near-present? Why not any data from 2008, 2009, 2010? You know, when Froome couldn't be picked out of a peloton if an announcer saw his back. Wouldn't it be more useful to see the progression from 2008 to present?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:03 am 
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There's a world of so-called experts out there pontificating about how they are god's gift. When Froome's numbers are scrutinised by proper scientists I will then take notice. Let's see what WADA say, not the likes of this guy or Antoine Vayer and other self-publicists.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:12 am 
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Maybe we'll see another ex-Barloworld South African display his descending abilities today....

http://www.myvideo.ch/watch/4728797

It's funny cause he didn't get hurt, obviously.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:12 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:
The hits keep coming.
Grappe also analyzed Mr. Armstrong's power profiles here: http://centre-velo2max.fr/WordPress3/20 ... armstrong/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Saw nothing wrong, praised Armstrong for his cadence and power abilities.


Haha, this is gold! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:37 am 
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@prendrefeu The problem with the analysis, and I believe some like Coggan have stated, is the context of the power files.

It is impossible, from power analysis alone, to determine where the "grey zone" of excellent human performance ends and doping begins. And its a large line. There would be plenty who were/are doping but are no-where near the top. Conversely those near the top, well, that's where they should be if they are indeed excellent athletes.

This means that the analysis is "correct" in the sense that there are no major abnormalities which are outside of that grey zone. The power produced is in the realms of normal human performance. This neither proves nor disproves the usage of doping (or other banned performance enhancer). However as we know, there is more benefit to doping that just kicking up the power. The ability to maintain a high, but "normal", power is one. The ability to recover from repeated supra-maximal efforts quickly etcetc.

I hope this snowballs a little and an independent body like WADA are given the task of making a more thorough analysis and to maintain the quality of that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:45 am 
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Stop the power analysis mess. Froome has the record in mt ventoux climb. Period. what else do you need?

BTW, today is the day. Today is THE stage. Enjoy...

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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:45 am 


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