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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:13 pm 
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prendrefeu wrote:
Just a general question: has there been any instances where we've seen a rider for Sky complete a race (not necessarily win it) without the powermeter 's head unit?
We've seen other racers on other teams compete - and win - without it (especially one day classics). Just wondering because it could prove the theory wrong.


this guy?

Image

Image

"Rigoberto Uran sits in 5th after stage 19, 3'21" back on Rodriguez, but has a firm grasp on the best young rider's white jersey, with a 2'26" lead over Sergio Henao (Sky). For Saturday's big mountain stage, mechanics removed his SRM and replaced it with a Dura-Ace 50/36 compact, and mounted ultra low profile (and light weight) 24mm-deep Shimano C24 rims built onto Dura-Ace hubs. He rides a 52cm frame and is 5'7" tall. "

and his mate
Image

wait a second..... colombians.... quintana....team sky....movi-sky.... illuminati!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:33 pm 
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From the perspective of someone who races and at one time raced at a decent level it's not about riding at TdF level. People are citing the example of their own experiences in racing cat 1,2,3 or whatever because the many factors that determine how one exerts themselves are the same there as at the pro tour. There are points where external factors dictate how you ride or you are left behind. People are questioning if your side of the argument has raced or not to establish credibility because the theory of a Sir Brailsford wattage spreadsheet for each climb, gradient, day, etc sounds absurd frankly. Do they adjust the watts for weather conditions?

Lets follow the argument through:
Contador and/or Quintana are able to follow Froome and attack him with say 2km to the top of Ventoux. What does he do? According to you he rides at his prescribed power or does he read the race and react? How does Brailsford predict this? Froome won with two massive accelerations. Do you think it's more likely that those were ridden at a specific power or simply 'f*cking hard' until the elastic snapped on Contador/Quintana. The argument only works if sky drop everyone else.

I would argue it's not about pacing a climb at a certain power output but more things like this: Watch the below wiggo documentry @ 25:00 Shane Sutton motor pacing him up the climbs. So awesome and I don't know that I've heard of anyone else doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzmXvHHQzcs


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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:33 pm 


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 Post subject: "PRO" Cycling Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Pete, thank you for a proper reply. Some things may sound absurd (re: methods), but that does not outright exclude them from the realm of possibility. Not too long ago the thought that a racer would import drugs across international borders through shoeboxes and bribe the governing body of a sport sounded pretty absurd. A few years ago the training methods of Sky would have also seemed absurd (if they were not, other teams would already be doing the same methods).

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:05 am 
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Makes me thinking about Billy Beane in baseball a few years ago (ref.: Moneyball)... :wink:

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:58 am 
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Tapeworm wrote:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/windbags.html?m=1


Alex is truly excellent and this is a really nice post but he makes one mistake which is to apply "wind speed" directly. Ground shear substantially attenuates wind speed at the "center of wind resistance" which is on order 1 meter height, while "wind speed" is referenced to a 10 meter height (typically). So he overestimates the effect.

That said, Froome seems to be getting plenty of tailwind this year :).

I'm not sure what to make of Froome. Obviously cycling has a tradition of sloppy training practice. My god, look at Hamilton's book: riding without food, taking a sleeping pill, sleeping, then getting up the next day and riding again. Catabolic, anyone? Sky's documented to be very careful about nutrition, for example.

Also, their extended training camps in Tenerife are rather unusual.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they have something up their sleeve.... not on the WADA list, and therefore not "illegal", similar to blood transfusions pre-1984.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:35 am 
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LouisN wrote:
Makes me thinking about Billy Beane in baseball a few years ago (ref.: Moneyball)... :wink:

Louis :)


LOL, thats exactly what i thought.

my pretty much unfounded opinion is that you can plan a race only to some extent. i second peterperson's comment on how bizzare an idea of such pre-programmed riding is. but, on the other hand, if Froome (in theory) is capable of adjusting his performance under such heavy load, that can only confirm he's pharmacologically doped to the gills, as i can't imagine how a normal human being would be able to adjust his power like a freakin machine


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:48 am 
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What sticks in my mind is Froome's post-14 interview - "I'm expecting big, big time gaps on the general classification after tomorrow night". Even right after he said it, it gave me the impression he knew something that everybody else didn't. I'm somebody who doesn't follow all the minutiae of the sport, so perhaps that's typical subtle bravado. It just seems stupid to say something like that when you know people are having suspicions. My personal theory, after analyzing the picture of him and Contador a few pages back, is that he's had a second set of lungs surgically implanted. Would that violate UCI?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:01 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:
Doubtful as the understanding of the correlation between a body's data and capabilities have been honed and finessed into powerful training methods is much more recent (post-HR monitor invention). Also, power ≠ HR.

However we're talking about a team that possibly found a loophole in guidelines that aides their success. What if that loophole isn't what you normally think of it (like a drug that hasn't been used yet) but is instead the focus on a calculated power output?

Just a general question: has there been any instances where we've seen a rider for Sky complete a race (not necessarily win it) without the powermeter 's head unit?
We've seen other racers on other teams compete - and win - without it (especially one day classics). Just wondering because it could prove the theory wrong.


Froome has raced without a PM mounted a few times this year. I believe at Paris Nice or the Dauphine can't remember which. Porte mentioned it in an interview, but quickly googling it doesn't show it. Sky riders often switched to compact cranks at Giro and Tour of Basque Country and they do not have compact SRMs.

Who was the last Grand Tour Winner that did not have a powermeter mounted?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:11 am 
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Sastre or Cobo?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:39 am 
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I thought Cobo had a Rotor 3D SRM?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:08 am 
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He had Rotor cranks for sure, so you're probably right.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:30 am 
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MattSoutherden wrote:
53x12 wrote:
??? As the saying goes, a good climber is a pacing plan and a bike fit from being good at TT.


Not necessarily.

Quintana and Purito will always struggle to get a TT position with low enough CdA to make them competitive in a flat/rolling TT.


MattSoutherden wrote:
53x12 wrote:
Matt, hence the "and a bike fit."


Yes. Sorry. What I meant was that even with a bike fit, someone that small can't get aero enough to offset their lack of absolute Watts.

@MattSoutherden - Simply not true. Porte is almost the same size as Rodriguez yet has always been a strong TT'er.
Image

KWalker wrote:
Sky riders often switched to compact cranks at Giro and Tour of Basque Country and they do not have compact SRMs.

Hang on, aren't most/all of their SRM's compact? That's the only way to get a 38 tooth ring with the OSymetric...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:19 am 
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KWalker wrote:
Who was the last Grand Tour Winner that did not have a powermeter mounted?


Contador Tour 2009?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/ ... ance/97232" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://cycling-passion.com/2012/09/25/2 ... ance-2009/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but I guess it should be Cobo, Vuelta 2011 as written before

http://www.arueda.com/images/stories/20 ... oome_a.jpg


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:34 am 
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jooo wrote:
Simply not true. Porte is almost the same size as Rodriguez yet has always been a strong TT'er.

I only have a few basics to chip in, so I'll appologise in advance if they are too basic.

A quick search put Porte at 63kg and Rodriguez at 57kg.
If they climb at the same speed, their W/kg are equal, so we have Rodriguez putting out 57/63=90% of Porte's power.
[I read an article that put a better measure of climbing performance on long climbs as W/kg^"something a bit less than 1 that I can't remember exactly" but that tips it more in Porte's favour....]

Then in the TT, speed is pretty much proportional to W/CdA. For the Stage 11 ITT, Rodriguez managed 94.5% of Porte's speed.
Juggling those assumptions about, Rodriguez already has a CdA of about 95.7% of Porte's which looks quite good anyhow....


Last edited by CarlosFerreiro on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:40 am 
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djconnel wrote:
But it wouldn't surprise me if they have something up their sleeve.... not on the WADA list, and therefore not "illegal", similar to blood transfusions pre-1984.

To me it seems that Sky and Froome performances are mixed up in a way by many people. Froome is clearly the strongest, but Sky? They are strong, but it's not like they are controlling the field every day, like in the heyday of youknowwho. Shouldn't they be much better collectively, if they "had something up their sleeve"? Same in this year's Giro, where they weren't quite suspiciously strong, collectively (not talking about Wiggins).

No, and I'm not buying into the "holding back" theory either.

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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:40 am 


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