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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:28 pm 
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Steponas wrote:
All the media doom-mongers talking about the end of cycling are almost always English-speaking.


You need to read L'equipe and La Gazzetta lately, and German TV was the only one to walk away from the TDF.

Rent this DVD:

http://www.biggerstrongerfastermovie.com/

Lots of hypocrisy out there. So Lance will be in politics as a "winner", how is this different than Schwarzenegger?

"Of you had to take [drugs] to save your job and feed your family..would you do it?"


Anyway, Gerolsteiner is now out. Cycling is losing sponsors at a time when they can't afford to do this.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:48 pm 
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zebragonzo wrote:
Didn't Menchov walk out of the tour last year in disgust when Rasmussen got caught?

Oh and Sastre's on the official suspects list, so talk of which one should edge the polka dot jersey is likely to be irrelevant anyhow.


Menchov and Rasmussen butted heads. Who knows his exact reason, but I got the impression that he left the tour because he did all that work for an asshole who got caught doping. I wouldn't say that he is clean, either. I mean, the guy has been tied to a doping ring at an Austrian clinic. I wonder if Schleck knows about this...

But for the sports sake (and because Menchov is one of my favorite riders), I sure hope he keeps 'clean,' whatever that word means.


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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:48 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:33 am 
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So are we done now? Spared a torrent of Saxo Bank and Columbia positives? Was that rumor list populated with riders whose blood was tested, but came up negative? Cynics might suggest a conspiracy to avoid a meltdown in the sport when the bubble of credibility offered by internal doping controls was burst. Or another simple suggestion is those programs work.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:51 am 
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Good questions djconnel.
I'm not saying this is the case here, but I've seen cases where one starts punishing/firing/killing/etc from the bottom up/less important/lowest income first until the next person in the obvious line cracks and offers a bribe or sex... Because thats what it's all about, money and BJs.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:55 am 
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djconnel wrote:
So are we done now? Spared a torrent of Saxo Bank and Columbia positives?

Hopefully but the CERA tests are done, next come the blood doping tests. It's possible more could be caught from these tests.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:47 am 
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Danton wrote:
djconnel wrote:
So are we done now? Spared a torrent of Saxo Bank and Columbia positives?

Hopefully but the CERA tests are done, next come the blood doping tests. It's possible more could be caught from these tests.



Yes, another 30 or 40 riders to be tested for autologus blood doping, and then the possibility that a test for EPO variants (biosimilars) could be on the horizon. All those riders who couldn't afford CERA might finally get caught for using cheap Chinese EPO variants.

Slightly OT, I see Roche has lost the right to sell CERA in the States. A massive market gone. It will have stockpiles of the drug to offload in Europe before it all hits its use-by date.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:45 am 
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Sprinter wrote:
Slightly OT, I see Roche has lost the right to sell CERA in the States. A massive market gone. It will have stockpiles of the drug to offload in Europe before it all hits its use-by date.

I remember seeing some statistics on sales of EPO in some slides from a results presentation from Johnson & Johnson and there was a section of the pie chart with something like "non clinical sales" that formed a large part of the sales. I asked about what these sales were and eventually got a reply that they were selling large quantities to Italian pharmacists. Make it what you want...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:08 am 
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I`ll be quite happy to see a contraction of the sport and a return to the core nations ie Belgium , France , Italy and Spain , or even regions within nations.
I`ll also be happy to see the end of Mondialisation , a misguided project which was mostly wishful thinking.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:03 am 
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Steponas wrote:
I`ll be quite happy to see a contraction of the sport and a return to the core nations ie Belgium , France , Italy and Spain , or even regions within nations.
I`ll also be happy to see the end of Mondialisation , a misguided project which was mostly wishful thinking.


For me that would be a real pity. I only get to see top flight cycling in Japan and Australia, so I'm grateful for the opportunity when events such as the Tour Down Under and the Tour of Japan arrive. The crowds lining the roads in Belgium don't seem to have been diminished by the popularity of the Tour de Hokkaido or the Herald-Sun Tour.

(Also, by "the sport" I presume you mean men's professional road racing? After all, there are more male professional cyclists in Japan than in France.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:08 pm 
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Sprinter wrote:
Steponas wrote:
I`ll be quite happy to see a contraction of the sport and a return to the core nations ie Belgium , France , Italy and Spain , or even regions within nations.
I`ll also be happy to see the end of Mondialisation , a misguided project which was mostly wishful thinking.


For me that would be a real pity. I only get to see top flight cycling in Japan and Australia, so I'm grateful for the opportunity when events such as the Tour Down Under and the Tour of Japan arrive. The crowds lining the roads in Belgium don't seem to have been diminished by the popularity of the Tour de Hokkaido or the Herald-Sun Tour.

(Also, by "the sport" I presume you mean men's professional road racing? After all, there are more male professional cyclists in Japan than in France.)


By contraction I meant more a European contraction ie a shrinking of the sport , for example , in Germany.
Traditionally , Germany has always had a smallish but sustainable pro road sector , the halcyon days ( Ullrich and T-Mobile ) of German pro road sport were an artificial exception , based on one rider and one team , unsustainable in the long term.
Now , German sponsors are abandoning the sport because they cannot " sell " it to the German public . Why not ? Does the German public have higher moral standards than the Belgian public ? Are Belgians more cynical than Germans ?
Re mondialisation , you cannot transplant sporting cultures simply by flying in European pro teams for two weeks. The European pro teams have voted with their feet , if it suits their commercial interests , predominantly European-based , then they will send teams to Asia , Arabia , Australia or Japan , if it doesn`t , they won`t , the politics and plans of the UCI notwithstanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:52 pm 
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www.sluitingsprijs.be

Take a look at this site , 30,000 people turn up to watch this race on a Tuesday in the middle of October.
Have a look at the " sfeerbeelden" in the menu , and the " Geschiedenis " ( history ) and the "erelijst" of the race if you can muddle your way through the Flemish .
All utterly fascinating


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Steponas wrote:
... you cannot transplant sporting cultures simply by flying in European pro teams for two weeks. The European pro teams have voted with their feet , if it suits their commercial interests , predominantly European-based , then they will send teams to Asia , Arabia , Australia or Japan , if it doesn`t , they won`t , the politics and plans of the UCI notwithstanding



Step, I'm not sure if you mean what I think, but I would say that, having been to a few areas now where Euro Pro's have started racing in the US, that it absolutley and without a doubt helps the sport.


I've seen the reaction of people in the US with the California Tour and even places like Georgia, where narrow minded people with a bit of a lack of exposure to European culture and Cycling are not exactly hard to find (And I have family there and lived there for many years). I've seen the same people that wouldn't give you an inch on the road side while riding suddenly become cycling friendly. Litterally the same jackass friend that used to buzz cyclists changed the way he drove after I drug his ass to a stage and he got to watch what it was all about.


Even more cosmopolitan places like Philly where the USPro Championships used to be run with major Euro participation transform a bit.


Having seen cycling turn towns and people around and give them exposure to a sport that really is beautiful and far pore personal and upclose than virtually any other pro sport, I would say that the more direct exposure the sport gets, the better off we are.


In fact I would say that the more direct exposure and interaction that people, cyclists or not, get with each other, the better off the world is.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:07 pm 
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In Japan many motorists still believe bicycles only belong on the sidewalk. I get tooted once or twice a week in Tokyo simply for daring to ride on the road. Road racing is virtually unknown here - everyone thinks cycling = keirin.

The Olympics wasn't even shown here - one Japanese friend was suprised cycling was in the Olympics (this despite one Japanese bronze in the keirin).

More racing here (and a famous Japanese pro - bigger than Beppu) would improve my daily commute a lot.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:44 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
So are we done now? Spared a torrent of Saxo Bank and Columbia positives? Was that rumor list populated with riders whose blood was tested, but came up negative? Cynics might suggest a conspiracy to avoid a meltdown in the sport when the bubble of credibility offered by internal doping controls was burst. Or another simple suggestion is those programs work.


They work to catch dopers, but they clearly don't work as a deterrent. The consequences of doping are weak sauce and worth the risk -look at Basso and Hamilton.
This is 2008, and no one dopes by accident. Anyone caught with steroids, EPO or CERA should get:

1. fine of $100,000
2. Lifetime ban
3. 6 months prison time w/sodomy.

That's a deterrent. As it stands, morons will still try to dope, and yet more big sponsors like Saunier duval, Gerolsteiner, and T-mobile will quit.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:31 pm 
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The proposed 4-year bans the UCI might start handing out (yes, I know the national feds are the responsible party) might be a BIT more of a deterent.

Two years is damaging to a career, four years is career-ending for the vast majority of professional racers.


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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:31 pm 


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