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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:29 pm 
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EURO wrote:
drjones96 wrote:
EURO wrote:
...For instance not allowing Greg Lemond to ask his questions at the Interbike press conference.


Greg Lemond was allowed to ask his questions. He even got to ask the first question. But in Greg Lemond style he had to be an a$$ about asking his questions...


One of the 'rules' of a press conference is that the journalists are allowed to be an ass, ask difficult questions and expect an answer. To push for the truth and not put up with PR bullcrap.

Often a public press conferences is the only space where people are able to question powerful, otherwise controlling figures. Who else is going to give Armstrong a hard time and push him on this issue? He won't agree to interviews with Kimmage or Walsh. He has a press blacklist.

PezTech wrote:
it's sure fun to watch ignorant, nationalistic bigots cry about the fact that the world has developed enough that it's no longer easy to unfairly discriminate against people.


Why are you not jumping to the defence of Frank Schleck? Why did you quote a list of people 'supposedly' implicated in CERA use in the tour in the Frank Schleck thread? Do you not live in the world you describe in which it is 'no longer easy to unfairly discriminate against people'?

Given that inconsistency, it's almost like you are just a nationalistic, flag waving Lance Armstrong fan who wants different rules applied to your poster boy. Almost

I, on the other hand just hate everyone who dopes, and hate the ones who deny doping even more. That's consistency. Admire the American Lemond for his balls, hate the European Ivan Basso for his lies.


How are you able to to turn your statements around so quickly?

You make an incorrect statement about the events as they happened, are called out for it, and then you jump on Pez for doing what he did. Armstrong gave him the time of day, and enough rope to hang himself. He tried to answer LeMond, but was interrupted several times. And, then he took questions from other members of the press, as he was entitled to do, and is fair. Why should Greg LeMond be given more than his fair share of the Q & A session? This was not a late night torture session during the Inquisition. I do agree that Greg LeMond IS entitled to ask hard questions; but if he wants answers, he needs to check his ego at the door, compose himself, and at least feign objectivity, so he can get legitimate questions out of his mouth instead of broken statements full of half-truths.


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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:29 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Sprinter wrote:
I'm interested to know people's thoughts on this...

Don Catlin's wife died of cancer. I have read that he wears a yellow Live Strong band on his wrist. Is it ethical to employ someone to check your blood values who has an emotional involvement in the issue you are promoting?

If Lance was about to win the Tour, and bring in millions for his charity through new sponsors and tie-ins, and Catlin found abnormal blood values, would he feel torn about undermining Lance's chance at victory and his one last push via cycling to raise money for cancer victims? Catlin wants Lance to raise money for cancer - would he feel bad about stopping him by going public with a non-negative result? Would he feel that on balance it might better to let Lance cheat, thereby saving lives?

Of course, this is all in the realms of the hypothetical - but to me it seems it could be a little unethical to employ a supporter of your cause as your drug tester.

While I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion you do make a reasonable point here. However he would still be subjected to the usual tour testing which recently seems a little more caught up with the drug advances. It would be a total embarrassment for Lance and his cancer cause if the tour caught him and it was evident Catlin was purposely covering things up.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:28 pm 
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520 Dan wrote:
EURO wrote:
Admire the American Lemond for his balls, hate the European Ivan Basso for his lies.


just to stir the pot...who says lemond was clean?


That`s an interesting question , the whole ADR episode was a bit dark , one of their riders dying , allegedly from drug " misuse " , with one ex-team mate not convinced that GL was clean. , with De Cauwer , allegedly , implicated in vitamine supply etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 pm 
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PezTech wrote:
The tests are open...

The problem is that when you cant be sure of the validity of the samples, then retesting them is pointless.


How about the validity of the testing?

Even more pointless as the current anti-doping tests and how they are administered can't seem to catch people out either.

One thing I am sick and tired of reading is how every Tour has been "the cleanest Tour in years" and now we have additional tests for CERA that have to be conducted.

PezTech wrote:
The reason Armstrong is being allowed to come back is that he simply has not been found to have broken the rules.


I know it's not what some people want, and some folks have reasonable arguements.

on the other hand,

it's sure fun to watch ignorant, nationalistic bigots cry about the fact that the world has developed enough that it's no longer easy to unfairly descriminate against people.


I don't think this is a french conspiracy, if this is who you are referring to. I think the cycling governing bodies hate the fact that one man is able to garner so much attention, as if he were bigger than the sport. I believe they resent this.

They also can't bully him or mess with him as he, unlike the average cyclist, can defend himself in court without going into bankruptcy.

The UCI like their cyclists meek and powerless against their system, and Lance is above that.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't make me a fan of his-just stating a differing viewpoint.


Last edited by J-Nice on Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:58 pm 
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520 Dan wrote:
I think that a lot of people who kind were present during the shift into the EPO era figured what they were doing was normal but EPO, well THAT was doping.


Pot: You are black!
Kettle: WTF?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:05 pm 
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that actually made me laugh out loud Dr.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:10 pm 
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drjones96 wrote:
520 Dan wrote:
EURO wrote:
Admire the American Lemond for his balls, hate the European Ivan Basso for his lies.


just to stir the pot...who says lemond was clean?


Man no kidding. I don't know why he's having this pi$$ing match with Lance when he was likely on something else...whatever the drug was during his era.


Actually, Lemond was tested by physiologists and found to be quite the genetic freak for aerobic potential and power output, much like Indurian. He has V02 max levels off the charts from his contemporaries.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:14 pm 
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People say Lance is a genetic freak also.

_________________
This board and the world in general would be a much nicer place if everyone could just take themselves a little less seriously.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:29 pm 
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J-Nice wrote:
How about the validity of the testing?

Even more pointless as the current anti-doping tests and how they are administered can't seem to catch people out either.

One thing I am sick and tired of reading is how every Tour has been "the cleanest Tour in years" and now we have additional tests for CERA that have to be conducted.

PezTech wrote:
The reason Armstrong is being allowed to come back is that he simply has not been found to have broken the rules.


I know it's not what some people want, and some folks have reasonable arguements.

on the other hand,

it's sure fun to watch ignorant, nationalistic bigots cry about the fact that the world has developed enough that it's no longer easy to unfairly descriminate against people.


I don't think this is a french conspiracy, if this is who you are referring to. I think the cycling governing bodies hate the fact that one man is able to garner so much attention, as if he were bigger than the sport. I believe they resent this.

They also can't bully him or mess with him as he, unlike the average cyclist, can defend himself in court without going into bankruptcy.

The UCI like their cyclists meek and powerless against their system, and Lance is above that.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't make me a fan of his-just stating a differing viewpoint.



J, I basically agree with you. (we actually think quite a bit alike on the treatment of the athletes and doping if you look at posts)

I'm not questioning the Validity of the testing process. Neither was the court that heard this arguement the first time. The samples were not deemed viable... I don't think I know more than the court does.


And I wasn't refering to the French as crybaby, ignorant nationalistic and bigoted. I do think that offering to retest samples deemed non viable is simply beating a dead and burried horse. I would think the same if they wanted to retest Ulrich's or Basso's blood versus the Puerto samples too. It's simply already been done and ruled on.


If Schleck has his day in court and they find nothing wrong, let him ride. Simple as that.

I've also said that while I don't believe Basso didn't dope, that there was no other thing for him to say except "I intended to..." and to take his suspension... To do anything more would have been foolish on his part.

I've also spoken in favor of Pettachi for the asthma meds thing etc...

I don't care what country people are from...



I'm not some narrow minded troll that has a hard on for specific people or places...

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Last edited by CharlesM on Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:33 pm 
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He has exceptional numbers, however, it's not known when he achieved those numbers, before or after the world paid attention to him after the cancer comeback. When they define someone as a genetic freak, they assume the person was not on a long-term hormone regimen.

Anyway, of course LA won't let the lab re-test his samples.

What he could have done is said to the French, "ok, re-test, but I'll have another independent lab re-test simultaneously, and if the results don't match, I was clean."

But he didn't do that. Landis did this, and every time the same answer came back: 11:1, 11:1, 11:1...

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Google: Results 1 - 20 of about 88,500 English pages for _doping_, _cycling_ and _denies_. (0.33 seconds)


Last edited by DocRay on Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:35 pm 
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DocRay wrote:
drjones96 wrote:
520 Dan wrote:
EURO wrote:
Admire the American Lemond for his balls, hate the European Ivan Basso for his lies.


just to stir the pot...who says lemond was clean?


Man no kidding. I don't know why he's having this pi$$ing match with Lance when he was likely on something else...whatever the drug was during his era.


Actually, Lemond was tested by physiologists and found to be quite the genetic freak for aerobic potential and power output, much like Indurian. He has V02 max levels off the charts from his contemporaries.


And ? Lemond protesteth too much


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:36 pm 
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As opposed to everyone else in Us cycling, who don't protesteth at all.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:46 pm 
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DocRay wrote:
As opposed to everyone else in Us cycling, who don't protesteth at all.

Lemond strikes me as an unlikely champion of openness and transparency , that`s not what motivates him.
This whole debate is a quagmire.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:12 pm 
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PezTech wrote:
I'm not questioning the Validity of the testing process.


I am, especially after the report I read on cyclingnews.com about the potential for positive EPO samples not being tested rigorously enough from the Olympics. I just think it wouldn't hurt to do further tests and I believe the person who brought this up has some sort of expertise in the field, but I'm not 100% certain.


PezTech wrote:
And I wasn't referring to the French as crybaby, ignorant nationalistic and bigoted.


I think my point here was misunderstood. I should of been more precise. I was referring to a bias within french cycling, like the labs that do the testing for the Tour and others like Jean Marie LeBlanc.


PezTech wrote:
I've also said that while I don't believe Basso didn't dope, that there was no other thing for him to say except "I intended to..." and to take his suspension... To do anything more would have been foolish on his part.


Methinks that if Basso had Armstrong's wallet he would of fought being banned, especially since he technically never tested positive. I am questioning the fairness of the system in this regard-to me it is unbalanced against the riders.


PezTech wrote:
I don't care what country people are from...I'm not some narrow minded troll that has a hard on for specific people or places...


Yes, I apologize if my remark made it seem as if I thought this. Like I said I thought you were talking about certain officials within the french cycling community. I should of made that clear.


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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:12 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:41 pm 
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J-Nice wrote:

I think my point here was misunderstood. I should of been more precise. I was referring to a bias within french cycling, like the labs that do the testing for the Tour and others like Jean Marie LeBlanc.



Exactly what proof is there of bias in French testing labs?
They don't even know who they are testing, how can they be biased?
"bias" seems to be the universal internet forum term for a rider from one's own country getting caught.

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Google: Results 1 - 20 of about 88,500 English pages for _doping_, _cycling_ and _denies_. (0.33 seconds)


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