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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:08 pm 
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KB wrote:

Perhaps you can elucidate who is actually clean? Because if you don't your argument becomes circular and the guys who you consider dopers are obviously the same people who would win anyway. So, rumours (your choice of wording) are true then?


This will take time, it has been stated by many admitted dopers, in books and press, that it was almost impossible to get out of the U23 levels without PEDs.

I think this has has legitimately changed in the last few years and there are ex-dopers who are now racing clean, and there are clean teams. However, there are still unethical doctors hovering around pro cycling teams who have the demonstrated ability to dope riders without detection, and there are many hormones that are still really impossible to detect. These are networks from riders to directors to doctors that have existed for years under a code of silence, these networks persist, and the ASO knows this. If this isn't cleaned up at every level, it just rewards dopers, as in the last decade.

The idea that one rider can beat other known, admitted, or convicted dopers for years would be the only one clean indicates a profound ignorance of physiology and pharmacology surrounding PEDs. We can all now deny that the former eastern block, famous for large state doping programs under the USSR, just happens to be the source of so many top riders? The US did not have a large Olympic doping program in the 80-90s?
Frankly, the whole Armstrong/Hamilton/Landis/Andreu/Grewal thing is indicative of cognitive denial, yay Barry Bonds, yay Marco Pantani.

I have great hopes for Highroad and Slipstream.

Like I said, my Giro and tour DVDs are now carefully hidden out of sight behind the chinchilla porn DVDs.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:31 am 
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I also have great hopes as well. Anecdotally in most cases, but having seen Liege-Bastogne-Liege, the racing appears to be that bit more unpredictable. Paris-Nice was also a good race to watch.

We will know when the races get slower. That should be a sure sign of a cleaner peloton allowing true talent to come through, but I'm still circumspect in view of the historical problems of PED's in the sport.

Whatever, it's a wonderful sport from an idealistic viewpoint. The degree of suffering that a bike rider goes through at the top level is phenomenal.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:58 pm 
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DocRay wrote:
We can all now deny that the former eastern block, famous for large state doping programs under the USSR, just happens to be the source of so many top riders?


The "Eeastern Block", whatever it is, had many top riders primarily because cycling was a popular participation sport with massive government support and effective children and youth cycling programmes. Think about it: the equivalent of British Cycling programme that UK has now has been around in the Soviet Union in the 70s. What some people on this tread have been trying to explain to you is that doping alone does not make a top cyclist, there has to be talent to begin with. This is not to say that doping is "ok" or "good", it's definitely bad and detrimental to the sport.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:59 pm 
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OK i don't get it - since there's this Big Conspiracy over cycling, hormones that can't be detected, persons who do this, persons who do that, strange objects whitnessed to be flying over fields of northern france, etc,...
...who the hell would be dumb enough to take EPO, testosterone, sabutamol, or other well-known stuff :?:

see, this is what's all there is - a cult, superstitions, and a lot of bull$hit.

i know you think you know smth others don't. i'm pretty sure there's a medical term for that. but the way some guys here try to poison the rest of us, and the way EVERY SINGLE topic concerning pro racing, cyclists, teams, etc gets DOPEdized is being tough to bear.. really


_SJ_ wrote:
DocRay wrote:
We can all now deny that the former eastern block, famous for large state doping programs under the USSR, just happens to be the source of so many top riders?


The "Eeastern Block", whatever it is, had many top riders primarily because cycling was a popular participation sport with massive government support and effective children and youth cycling programmes.


exactly


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Interesting to note that Johan Bruyneel says that Astana was allowed to participate in the Giro because Kazachstan treatened Italy that they would stop gas deliveries. He also says that France can look forward to similar problems. I don't think I like this kind of state involvement. Smells like old communist spirit.

_________________
And if I ever meet an aardvark, I'm going to step on its damn protruding nasal implement until it couldn't suck up an insect if its life depended on it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Source please?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:13 pm 
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They threatened the french the same way before the Puerto Tour. Due to the team not having enough riders left there wasn't a way for them to start but it left Vino untouched by the puerto issues (at least for 12 months.....)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Location: Manchester, UK
Its only the same sort of bullying that ASO like to carry out on for example Unibet. I'm not saying Astana are the same as Unibet but I dont see why they shouldnt ride when all the others are, its not as if any of the other teams have never had riders involved in scandals in fact it would be easier to name the teams that haven't on more than one occasion.

Milram, 2 this year for example and their line up also includes Eric "I only took it once (and won a green jersey that year)" Zabel


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:51 pm 
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micky wrote:
Source please?

Flemish television did an interview with Bruyneel

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And if I ever meet an aardvark, I'm going to step on its damn protruding nasal implement until it couldn't suck up an insect if its life depended on it.


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