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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:22 pm
Posts: 1377
Location: London
I'm torn.

On one side, I would mostly be in favour of having a presumed liability law.

On the flip side, the number of times people just walk out into the road in front of me every week is ludicrous. I have racing as an outlet for my desire for speed, so when I'm commuting I'm quite happy just to dawdle about. The problem is not just people stepping out from behind cars, or walking out at junctions that would reasonably be considered somewhere that pedestrians might cross. I often see people just walking along the pavement looking at their phone and then just turn 90˚ and walk into the road. No heads-up, no cursory glance that might help you anticipate their stupidity, no nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm
Posts: 1529
Cell phones aside, you have to remember that as cyclists we aren't very visible. We move along the road silently. When I rode in a more urban area I'd come across pedestrians all the time that just didn't notice I was there. I think a lot of people assume they can hear a car coming up behind them.

Regarding Charlie Alliston - I don't know about the UK but in US, your attitude can be the difference between the district attorney deciding to prosecute or not.


Quote:
that if you aren't in the cross walk it's your fault if you're hit.


That is not a law in the US though your parents have have drilled that into you.

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 507
Location: Madison, WI USA
I agree with AJS914: I’ve never heard of a place in the US that presumes it’s the pedestrian’s fault if they are struck by a car outside a crosswalk. But if, as a driver, you strike a pedestrian who is in a crosswalk, you’re almost certainly going to be found at fault.

I think that in general, invulnerable road users should yield to vulnerable ones. But this can be taken too far. Here in Wisconsin (USA), we have a law that requires cars to yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk. That’s a fine law as written, but people do crazy things with it.

Madison, the capital, is a little crunchy (hippie-style liberal; I myself am a non-hippie liberal, so I’m generally fine with that) and people get really aggressive about yielding to pedestrians anywhere near a crosswalk. Some people will brake hard if they see a pedestrian who is merely near a crosswalk. That pedestrian may just be standing two meters from the crosswalk waiting for a ride, but some drivers will still stop. Stopping for people actually in a crosswalk would be fine, but there’s a certain competitive niceness here, so people brake hard and brake often.

When I’m riding with my kids, we’re often on bike paths that cross streets via painted crosswalks. If I’m stopped one meter from the crosswalk waiting for one or both kids to catch up, I’ll still get drivers stopping for me even though I’m looking behind me for my kids; then they get angry that I’m not acknowledging their unimpeachable niceness. I once had one irate lady yell at me, “Hey! I’m trying to be nice to you!” I responded, “I don’t want you to be nice. I want you to be predictable.”

Alternatively, I’ll tell my kid to look both ways and tell us when it’s safe to cross. I’m trying to train the kids to do this on their own, obviously, and it is unhelpful when people try to be “nice” and stop pre-emptively. The last thing I want to teach my kids is that they can count on cars to brake for them and let them through.

This is dangerous in another way. On roads with two lanes in each direction, sometimes the person in the right lane will brake aggressively for someone who seems to be headed for the crosswalk. The drivers in the left lane can’t see the pedestrian because the stopped car or SUV is in the way, so they may or may not stop. You can imagine how the pedestrian might step out in front of the stopped car and into the path of another one going 45 miles per hour.

People from out of town don’t know why the driver in the right lane came to a stop, so they just cruise on through the crosswalk at full speed. Honestly, I can’t fault them for it.

Some intersections are getting blinky yellow lights triggered by a button so that (a) the pedestrian can indicate a desire to cross, and (b) drivers can see that someone is crossing (or about to) without having to actually put eyes on the pedestrian. To me, this solves the problem...I wish they’d put these lights at more crosswalks.

(Obviously, if the crosswalk is at a traffic-light-controlled intersection, there’s no need for additional blinkenlights).


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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 pm
Posts: 590
Location: Bristol uk
MattSoutherden wrote:
I'm torn.

On one side, I would mostly be in favour of having a presumed liability law.

On the flip side, the number of times people just walk out into the road in front of me every week is ludicrous. I have racing as an outlet for my desire for speed, so when I'm commuting I'm quite happy just to dawdle about. The problem is not just people stepping out from behind cars, or walking out at junctions that would reasonably be considered somewhere that pedestrians might cross. I often see people just walking along the pavement looking at their phone and then just turn 90˚ and walk into the road. No heads-up, no cursory glance that might help you anticipate their stupidity, no nothing.

I agree totally with this,i poodle about and give way to pedestrians and cars in built up areas,what i dont agree with is that people think they can just step out in the road and not give to monkeys about anyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 4439
Location: Natovi Landing
markyboy wrote:
MattSoutherden wrote:
I'm torn.

On one side, I would mostly be in favour of having a presumed liability law.

On the flip side, the number of times people just walk out into the road in front of me every week is ludicrous. I have racing as an outlet for my desire for speed, so when I'm commuting I'm quite happy just to dawdle about. The problem is not just people stepping out from behind cars, or walking out at junctions that would reasonably be considered somewhere that pedestrians might cross. I often see people just walking along the pavement looking at their phone and then just turn 90˚ and walk into the road. No heads-up, no cursory glance that might help you anticipate their stupidity, no nothing.

I agree totally with this,i poodle about and give way to pedestrians and cars in built up areas,what i dont agree with is that people think they can just step out in the road and not give to monkeys about anyone else.


Yes. Like MattSoutherden, I'm a commuter in London and satisfy the need for speed well away from the commute. The last 5 or so years pedestrian behaviour has changed for the worse due to phones. Specifically in London there is an added factor of cycle superhighways being seen as something that it's apparently more ok to step out into than roads. I'm not convinced cycle superhighways are safer for cyclists than the equivalent road was previously, perhaps less chance of being killed, and more chance of being injured.

Sooner or later a reverse Charlie Alliston of a ped killing a cyclist will happen ... though of course it will take that before people even start to appreciate pedestrian behaviour is part of the whole safety picture

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Posts: 1377
Location: London
sawyer wrote:
Specifically in London there is an added factor of cycle superhighways being seen as something that it's apparently more ok to step out into than roads.


Have you tried riding down the Embankment one around lunchtime. Sweet lord almighty it's insane. Apparently it's also a jogging track. Who knew? :noidea:

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:08 am
Posts: 283
Location: The Washingtons: DC and the state
KB wrote:
The Charlie Alliston case. I think he may have got some sympathy if he came across better. He didn't and sounded like a heartless knob. In fact behaved like a lot of people in cars.


It doesn't help his cause he didn't have brakes. I've done plenty of fixed gear spin training back in my racing days on wide open rural roads. Say what you will but you'll never convince me that it's not reckless and dangerous in an urban environment.

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 4439
Location: Natovi Landing
MattSoutherden wrote:
sawyer wrote:
Specifically in London there is an added factor of cycle superhighways being seen as something that it's apparently more ok to step out into than roads.


Have you tried riding down the Embankment one around lunchtime. Sweet lord almighty it's insane. Apparently it's also a jogging track. Who knew? :noidea:


Indeed. Again sooner or later a pedi will be sued / sentenced for causing a serious injury.

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 Post subject: Re: jaywalking uk
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Posts: 358
Location: Seattle, WA
youngs_modulus wrote:
Some people will brake hard if they see a pedestrian who is merely near a crosswalk. That pedestrian may just be standing two meters from the crosswalk waiting for a ride, but some drivers will still stop. Stopping for people actually in a crosswalk would be fine, but there’s a certain competitive niceness here, so people brake hard and brake often.


I wish that was the case here. Literally no one cares about crosswalks or if there are pedestrians waiting to cross or even if there's pedestrians crossing WITH the walk-sign on. If they see someone wanting to cross, they speed up to try to beat them. If there is someone about to cross, they speed up and swerve around. If there is a vehicle slowing down for a pedestrian to cross, they speed up, swerve around to overtake the car to get there faster before pedestrian. Ridiculously stupid drivers.

On a related note: there's also a number of cyclists here who have taken to recording every second of their ride in hopes that they have the law on their side, except they soon find that reporting incidents to the police with footage evidence does nothing, because there is a law stating that an officer has to be personally present when the incident happened in order to administer a citation (unless it's footage taken by a city-installed traffic camera). Just two weeks ago the police shot up a driver for turning too close to an officer (the vehicle was considered a weapon), yet a few days later, a cyclist reported footage of a driver dangerously over taking him on the same lane, then telling him it was "to teach a lesson" afterward and they were completely dismissed. Humans are feral creatures, ladies and gentlemen.

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