2017 'PRO' cycling discussion.

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LeDuke
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

Haydn wrote:
53x12 wrote:
If these guys aren't healthy to compete and need to take TUE, then guess what, maybe they aren't healthy enough to compete and should sit out.
I used to have asthma when i was a child, its pretty much gone now but i get it occasionally when i have a cold & it can be debilitating. When it is I use Salbutamol & within 2 seconds i go from seriously struggling for breath to being 100% fine, its a wonder of medical science as far as I'm concerned.

It would seem pretty harsh to ban asthmatics from sport because of a dubious suspicion that their medication is unfairly performance enhancing
If you can't breathe because of a naturally occurring condition, how is taking a substance to enhance your body's natural ability NOT cheating?

Hawkwood
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:27 pm

by Hawkwood

LeDuke wrote:
Haydn wrote:
53x12 wrote:
If these guys aren't healthy to compete and need to take TUE, then guess what, maybe they aren't healthy enough to compete and should sit out.
I used to have asthma when i was a child, its pretty much gone now but i get it occasionally when i have a cold & it can be debilitating. When it is I use Salbutamol & within 2 seconds i go from seriously struggling for breath to being 100% fine, its a wonder of medical science as far as I'm concerned.

It would seem pretty harsh to ban asthmatics from sport because of a dubious suspicion that their medication is unfairly performance enhancing
If you can't breathe because of a naturally occurring condition, how is taking a substance to enhance your body's natural ability NOT cheating?
`...enhance your body's natural ability...', when I was racing my `natural' peak flow was 700, during an asthma attack it could drop to around 600-650, after taking Salbutamol it MIGHT get back to just under 700, but more often than not it didn't. By the way my asthma is regularly triggered by something that is not a naturally occurring condition, air pollution.

by Weenie


spud
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am

by spud

LeDuke wrote:
Haydn wrote:
53x12 wrote:
If these guys aren't healthy to compete and need to take TUE, then guess what, maybe they aren't healthy enough to compete and should sit out.
I used to have asthma when i was a child, its pretty much gone now but i get it occasionally when i have a cold & it can be debilitating. When it is I use Salbutamol & within 2 seconds i go from seriously struggling for breath to being 100% fine, its a wonder of medical science as far as I'm concerned.

It would seem pretty harsh to ban asthmatics from sport because of a dubious suspicion that their medication is unfairly performance enhancing
If you can't breathe because of a naturally occurring condition, how is taking a substance to enhance your body's natural ability NOT cheating?
well, if it's a recognized and definable medical condition that can land you in the hospital (which asthma can), I'd say it's not cheating to take a puff to restore breathing. But if you are taking 80 puffs, well, you probably shouldn't be riding a bike that day.

maquisard
Posts: 1805
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

What is interesting in this case with Froome is the Sky press-release. The posturing has already started by the team to separate the rider from the team, I can see Team Sky cutting Froome loose to ensure their future and leave him to answer the awkward questions.

dereksmalls
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:20 pm
Location: New Zealand

by dereksmalls

He'll get off, somehow.

RimClencher
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:00 am

by RimClencher

Froome has shown many times it is well within the definition of normal for him to win a GC race.
Thus, taking salbutamol merely returned his performance to normal.
Q.E.D.

nemeseri
Posts: 640
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

mrlobber wrote: Edit: The Inner Ring has a deeper write on this: http://inrng.com/2017/12/chris-froomes-salbutamol-case/
I really enjoyed the inrng article. Maybe this one is new to someone too: http://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/bri ... ol-result/

Very-well written analysis.

Rondje
Posts: 965
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:46 pm
Location: Netherlands

by Rondje

RimClencher wrote:Froome has shown many times it is well within the definition of normal for him to win a GC race.
Thus, taking salbutamol merely returned his performance to normal.
Q.E.D.
But it isn't normal for him to win 2 GC's in a row. And if a medicine makes you return to your normal performance level while being worse a day before, doesn't that show exactly that the medicine is a performance enhancer? The whole game of GC's is being in top shape for as long as possible, if you use a medicine to extend that period that medicine is a performance enhancer.

Rondje
Posts: 965
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:46 pm
Location: Netherlands

by Rondje

As there are more important things in life then Froome's possible ban, here is a clip of Stig Broeckx recovering after his coma.
https://twitter.com/SammyNeyrinck/statu ... 7534070784

bilwit
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

It's going to take a lot of money under the table for Froome to pass a pharmacokinetic test to prove the levels magically spike 200% over the limit given the prescribed dosage. He's taken Salbutamol every year, so if the findings were "normal" for him then he should have a history of AAF triggering throughout his career.

What's more disturbing is that it took a media leak for this to come out and the UCI/Froome/Sky have known about this for months.. The TUE stuff can be explained by being within the rules and medical confidentiality but we're talking about in-competition AAF for BOTH samples for "the greatest grand tour rider of his generation" here. Absolute farce if he's not punished in some way. That's not to say he won't come back and win a bunch of GTs anyway (like Contador) but it's pretty inexcusable to not face some sort of sanction IMO.

RimClencher
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:00 am

by RimClencher

Rondje wrote:But it isn't normal for him to win 2 GC's in a row.
Not yet! But if he were to win two GCs in a row in the future, it would be fair to assume it is normal for him, based on which he should be retrospectively re-awarded the Vuelta title. Fair is fair.
Rondje wrote:And if a medicine makes you return to your normal performance level while being worse a day before, doesn't that show exactly that the medicine is a performance enhancer?
This is based on anecdotal evidence of a single instance. I am sure laboratory testing can show that Chris Froome will perform normally after a bad day on the bike on multiple occasions without salbutamol, if necessary.

AJS914
Posts: 1891
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

You guys talk like this is all surprising.

1)I think that whatever Froome is doing is also being done by his rivals. This is pro cycling and it's not some Sky conspiracy. I just read Tyler Hamiton's book and one of the take-a-ways for me was that even with careful doping protocols someone slips up and gets caught eventually. It's just the odds.

2)My only question is that the drug in question doesn't make sense. It's not very performance enhancing and it's hard to imagine Froome taking 40 puffs of an inhaler in one day. So, is it used as a masking agent?

3) At worst, Froome probably gets a short penalty and is back on track the following year. Maybe he misses the Tour. Maybe, it's a 9 month penalty and he's back at the Vuelta.

Rondje
Posts: 965
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:46 pm
Location: Netherlands

by Rondje

RimClencher wrote:
Rondje wrote:But it isn't normal for him to win 2 GC's in a row.
Not yet! But if he were to win two GCs in a row in the future, it would be fair to assume it is normal for him, based on which he should be retrospectively re-awarded the Vuelta title. Fair is fair.
Rondje wrote:And if a medicine makes you return to your normal performance level while being worse a day before, doesn't that show exactly that the medicine is a performance enhancer?
This is based on anecdotal evidence of a single instance. I am sure laboratory testing can show that Chris Froome will perform normally after a bad day on the bike on multiple occasions without salbutamol, if necessary.
If that was the case then why would he use so much? He obviously had health issues that got in the way of his performance, else he wouldn’t increase the dose. You don’t increase the dose by such a big amount for the fun of it. There is also no need to retrospectivly re-award anything as long as he isn’t punished yet, it’s up to Sky now to prove something (I got no idea what) to clear Froome of these charges before he does get punished.

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TonyM
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:11 pm

by TonyM

nemeseri wrote:
mrlobber wrote: Edit: The Inner Ring has a deeper write on this: http://inrng.com/2017/12/chris-froomes-salbutamol-case/
I really enjoyed the inrng article. Maybe this one is new to someone too: http://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/bri ... ol-result/

Very-well written analysis.
Thanks! indeed very interesting!

by Weenie


dereksmalls
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:20 pm
Location: New Zealand

by dereksmalls

53x12 wrote:
LeDuke wrote:Why are people with "asthma" allowed to break the rules?

You are what you are; your physical defect is just that. I mean, should I be allowed to take EPO to make up for my 65ml/kg/min VO2 max? A lower-than-others VO2max is a "defect" when it comes to bike racing, too.

Here's the solution: If you have asthma, you stop pedaling, get off your bike, sit down on the ground, and then take your inhaler and compose yourself after your asthma attack. And then you withdraw from the race, because of health concerns.
+1. It is almost as if you don't have 'asthma' that you can't be a top athlete nowadays. I don't have 'asthma' but guess I need to develop 'asthma' so that I don't get dropped on fast group rides.

If these guys aren't healthy to compete and need to take TUE, then guess what, maybe they aren't healthy enough to compete and should sit out.
Exactly what Katie Compton does, gets off her bike if suffering and pulls out

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