clinchers v tubs Clinchers win

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Wingnut
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by Wingnut

IMO the very best tubulars are still ahead of the very best clinchers...some used to say tubulars could sing and I remember a local climber who's tyres would actually make these strange squeals when climbing...

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RyanH
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by RyanH

xena wrote:
davidalone wrote:clinchers have been known to be faster than tubs for a long while now.

But Tubs are used by pros for the following reasons, not because they are perceived to be faster.

1) they are less prone to flatting, all things being equal.
2) can be run at lower pressures without pinch flatting
3) carbon tubulars are safer than clinchers from the standpoint of heat braking issues.
4) you can ride a flat tubular for a good distance safely. not so a clincher. This is espeically an issue if you flat on a fast descent in a crowded peloton.
5) the aspect of increased mechanical complexity is solved by having pro mechanics.

the aero advantage and Crr advantage is small. if my livelihood depended on racing, I'd take additional safety over a small aero and Crr advantage.


I don't think flatting for a A1 condition tyre is a issue

I don't know how low but for PR etc you may have a point. Maybe someone else may know for sure.
I do deflate in wet conditions with no issue.

I think most riders prefer to descend on alloy rims then carbon. They definitely feel safer than carbon. I just came back from Nice and rode a whole bunch of cols, no issue whatsoever.
You would be very unlucky to get a instant flat. The roads are usually swept at pro races. The fans even make sure there is nothing obvious to cause problems.

I think your points are good but I'm not sure they would hold up in real racing environment ....

Confidence comes from using the equipment and knowing its limits. I too went to Nice but I took my Reynolds tubulars. We have many descents in California that are as technical and steep(if not more) than in Nice and I feel most confident in my tubulars because I know a blowout won't cause me to eat it or fly off the edge.

Regarding instant flats, I know a half dozen people that have gone down because of instant flats in the last two years.

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ghostinthemachine
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by ghostinthemachine

xena wrote:I don't think flatting for a A1 condition tyre is a issue
It is. I used to get 5 or 6 punctures a season on my training (clincher) wheels, which had new tyres every few weeks. And probably the same on tubs, which were pretty much race only.
xena wrote:You would be very unlucky to get a instant flat. The roads are usually swept at pro races. The fans even make sure there is nothing obvious to cause problems.
Maybe in the Grand Tours and major classics, but even then it's usually only on corners, finishing circuits etc. The vast majority might get a bit of a clean up, but there is still a lot of stuff on the road. The only plus side is that with 200 people on the road plus fans running around a lot of it gets picked up by other people.
I've also had punctures from crashes, hitting cassettes or chainrings. If its only a little bump, its far easier to get on the road and get your wheel swapped 2 or 3 km down the road. When you can plan for it a bit, rather than standing around like a prat for 5 minutes, maybe not a problem for the top top guys, but for domestiques and lower tier teams, it is. Obviously doesn't work if there are 30 people on the deck though.
xena wrote:I think your points are good but I'm not sure they would hold up in real racing environment ....
Except for 5, they really really do stand up well. And 5 is only really an issue for training and "little" events, so a lot of guys outside of the top tier use clinchers for that sort of thing.

davidalone
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by davidalone

ghostinthemachine wrote:
xena wrote:I don't think flatting for a A1 condition tyre is a issue
It is. I used to get 5 or 6 punctures a season on my training (clincher) wheels, which had new tyres every few weeks. And probably the same on tubs, which were pretty much race only.
xena wrote:You would be very unlucky to get a instant flat. The roads are usually swept at pro races. The fans even make sure there is nothing obvious to cause problems.
Maybe in the Grand Tours and major classics, but even then it's usually only on corners, finishing circuits etc. The vast majority might get a bit of a clean up, but there is still a lot of stuff on the road. The only plus side is that with 200 people on the road plus fans running around a lot of it gets picked up by other people.
I've also had punctures from crashes, hitting cassettes or chainrings. If its only a little bump, its far easier to get on the road and get your wheel swapped 2 or 3 km down the road. When you can plan for it a bit, rather than standing around like a prat for 5 minutes, maybe not a problem for the top top guys, but for domestiques and lower tier teams, it is. Obviously doesn't work if there are 30 people on the deck though.
xena wrote:I think your points are good but I'm not sure they would hold up in real racing environment ....
Except for 5, they really really do stand up well. And 5 is only really an issue for training and "little" events, so a lot of guys outside of the top tier use clinchers for that sort of thing.


They do. My Brother in law and go-to bike mechanic raced continental for 3 years, 4 in the latter case. They like the ride quality of tubulars, but these are by far their biggest reasons for riding tubulars in a race scenario.

Flatting an A1 condition road tyre? normal. ever watched a pro road race and counted how many flats rider get? Contrary to belief teams do not swap out new tubulars every few days. they swap them out when they are worn out or punctured. the miles a pro rider puts out at races? those tyres aren't A1 for a very long time.

Roads are swept at big races with the budget. races at the conti or proconti level usually arent. besides, you don't sweep 200km of a pro stage. especially if your race is going into the mountains. do you want to be THAT guy who tells the road sweeper driving the vehicle he has to sweep alpe d huez?
Fans make sure nothing is obvious- well dorry bro. you rarely have fans lining ALL 100km+ of your race route.

davidalone
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by davidalone

xena wrote:
davidalone wrote:clinchers have been known to be faster than tubs for a long while now.


I don't think flatting for a A1 condition tyre is a issue

I don't know how low but for PR etc you may have a point. Maybe someone else may know for sure.
I do deflate in wet conditions with no issue.

I think most riders prefer to descend on alloy rims then carbon. They definitely feel safer than carbon. I just came back from Nice and rode a whole bunch of cols, no issue whatsoever.
You would be very unlucky to get a instant flat. The roads are usually swept at pro races. The fans even make sure there is nothing obvious to cause problems.

I think your points are good but I'm not sure they would hold up in real racing environment ....


Also, to answer these:
Lighter riders ride lower pressures. YOU may have no problems deflating to in a wet race. a pro might not have the same luck in a crowded peloton, over bad italian roads, and who is expected to ride aggressively. 70-80 psi is about as low as you would go on the road. that is flirting with danger on a clincher. It's still okay on a tubular.

Most riders prefer to descend on alloy rims. I do too. unortunately, pro riders don't get the choice to ride what they want all the time. they ride sponsor provided wheels, which are, surprise surprise.... carbon. If I were a pro do I want the gnawing feeling that my carbon clincher might blow out if I have improper braking technique when I'm tearing down the mountain at 100km per hour? no you do not.

The same argument comes in again when people say why don't pro riders ride deeper wheels which are more aero? The answer is that racing in the pro peloton is incredibly stressful environment few of us will ever face. descending or racing at breakneck speed, millimeters from another rider, not many people can handle deep wheels in such an environment, especially with helicopters and sudden gusts of wind. My mechanic was a top amatuer rider, and his team used zipp wheels. he used the 404 for a few races, then went back to the 303 and never again used the 404 on the road. That's his story.


MarkTwain
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by MarkTwain

xena wrote:
kgt wrote:
fromtrektocolnago wrote:Conversations about which is the faster solution matter only if you are racing where seconds may matter.


That's one of the reasons tubulars are used almost exclusively in pro cycling.
The most important reasons is that tubulars are better than clinchers in almost every performance aspect.




Yeah but clinchers have come along way ,ask Tony Martin.
I have rode both I don't see any real difference . Clinchers roll just as fast. The test showed they were faster.
Its the rubber that hits the ground, how you put them on a wheel is a different matter.
I think maybe pro teams have been a bit stuck in the past and ignored the development of clinchers.
The test go's some way to proving you are wrong.

Forget trying to reason with him, his appeals to authority are used when they suit his purpose. Seemingly "speed" isn't a big performance aspect :lol:

xena
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by xena

I have to ask why every one seems to be ignoring the speed aspect?
There's a lot of talk about performance. But I have used both and I don't see a huge difference in performance the way a bike handles.
Surly you want to go faster.
The issue of fast flats is a interesting one but so far I have climbed most of the major cols in France besides riding at home in
London and maybe once or twice [talking years] have I had a fast flat and that was due to a nail and big chunk of glass. I doubt you will come into contact with such items in a pro race.
I'm not so sure there is a bit of a " we ride tubs they are the best " attitude going on here.
Some of the mountains I ride in Scotland and I know the descents very well I can bomb down no brakes hit a really fast speed and the clinchers feel great and safe. Tubs do come off rims you know, even for the pros. I don't ever feel my clinchers are going to come off their rims . Why would they? I also would not tear down a mountain at 100k if I did not know how to handle my bike. Clinchers or tubs you are heading for trouble .
Like I said , I am not a expert but a race like PR, tubs I imagine would be a benefit because of the low tyre pressure [ pinch flats] But otherwise I still don't see anything that suggests a clincher would not do a job as equal to a tub.

Talking about deep dish clinchers and how they handle is not relevant. We all know their shortcomings in windy conditions.

Team mechanics can change a wheel the same, does not matter if its a clincher or a tub.

Clinchers still winning for me.
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Getter
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by Getter

Instant flat @ 95psi.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

No one is claiming they don't happen. I've had only one occasion of a downhill flat on a clincher, not a fun experience and damn tricky to keep it upright. However not impossible.

Not an experience I ever hope to repeat. But tubs on a decent aren't immune

Image

and before someone claims "it was a bad glue job" that's a drawback/risk factor in riding tubs, same as an inner tube is for clinchers.

Wingnut wrote:IMO the very best tubulars are still ahead of the very best clinchers...

Given where the market is at now and the continual product innovation with clinchers I'm not sure I agree with this any more. And who bowls around with FMB singles? A few percent of those who ride tubs. Look at the leaders of each field and the difference just isn't there any more. Which makes sense. If you're a manufacturer why would you pour money in to a product that represents an ever decreasing proportion of your sales. The crowd that ride singles are no doubt still true. But with the rapid rise of cycling those new riders aren't riding tubulars.

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euan
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by euan

The type of bikes that people are riding and that type of riding is changing. Larger volume and tubeless will continue to grow.

mattr
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by mattr

xena wrote:I have to ask why every one seems to be ignoring the speed aspect?
Because the differences are well within the realms of experimental error?
xena wrote:Team mechanics can change a wheel the same, does not matter if its a clincher or a tub.
Doesn't help if you've rolled the clincher off the rim as the mechanics can't get to you RIGHT NOW. I've ridden a tub 10 miles after flatting in a time trial and then riding home. Can't ride 100 metres without a clincher coming off.
xena wrote:Clinchers still winning for me.
A) you aren't a pro B) you don't race in 200 rider bunches at ~50kph C) they win for me too, but then, I'm not a pro either.

Pro riding isn't ALL about straight line speed, the safety aspect shouldn't be overlooked.

And FWIW a lot of the stuff that is used to market bike kit to the general public is almost completely and utterly irrelevant to 99% of pro riders and 99% of the riding they do.

xena
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by xena

mattr wrote:
xena wrote:I have to ask why every one seems to be ignoring the speed aspect?
Because the differences are well within the realms of experimental error?
xena wrote:Team mechanics can change a wheel the same, does not matter if its a clincher or a tub.
Doesn't help if you've rolled the clincher off the rim as the mechanics can't get to you RIGHT NOW. I've ridden a tub 10 miles after flatting in a time trial and then riding home. Can't ride 100 metres without a clincher coming off.
xena wrote:Clinchers still winning for me.
A) you aren't a pro B) you don't race in 200 rider bunches at ~50kph C) they win for me too, but then, I'm not a pro either.

Pro riding isn't ALL about straight line speed, the safety aspect shouldn't be overlooked.

And FWIW a lot of the stuff that is used to market bike kit to the general public is almost completely and utterly irrelevant to 99% of pro riders and 99% of the riding they do.



Hi mattr . Well at worse they are equal. The test was pretty good and the fact a rider like Tony Martin uses them means they must have relevance.

How many times have we seen a puncture at crucial part of a race for a contender and his race is over , many times. You can keep going but your race is over if the peloton have put their foot down.
If you get a flat your unlucky full stop.

I have never once rolled a clincher off its rim. I make sure my tyres are in the wheels as they should be. I don't know anyone that has happened to.

If you had a spare inner tube in your pocket you could have rode home without a flat. If your tyre went down in your race/TT you are not going to win just the same as if you were riding a clincher. You have to admit that


Riding in a bunch on clinchers or tubs at whatever speed makes no difference, Why would it? The chances of getting a fast flat would be zero. Chances of touching wheels is the same. I have rode in decent size groups bombing along at high speeds, tub/clinchers makes no difference.

I don't understand the safety aspect? what safety aspect. Clinchers handle just as well as tubs. Left, right. straight ,you can point them in all the directions :D

Every piece of equipment the pros use has to be available for the public to buy. There is no magic bearings or special
socks , a lot of the marketing is aimed at riders who want to buy the same bike /parts as the hero's and you can.
Even Alan Hansen as to make his shoes available to the public.
The pro's use bikes,wheels, gears etc just like we do, They just do it for a living.
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mattr
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by mattr

Tony Martin uses them in time trials. One rider, one team car, two spare bikes.

A flat tubular can be ridden safely for several km, until you can get to a team car/neutral service. A flat clincher cannot. A flat on a clincher is game over. You stop and stand at the side of the road, and wait.

I only know one person who has rolled a tub off the rim. It wasn't installed properly. I've seen a few people blow clinchers off rims, when badly installed. FFS, i've done it once or twice when rushing.

If i'd had a spare tubular i could have ridden home. But it was a time trial, no pockets, no saddle bag. I'd have been stuffed anyway.

Fast flats happen, just cos you haven't had one doesn't mean they don't happen.

Safety, riding on a flat tub is relatively safe, riding on a flat clincher is most certainly not.

Marketing, advertising claims, they are irrelvant to pros, not the actual eqiuipment.

You carry on with the clinchers, i don't care, i'll carry on with the clinchers too. The pros have different priorities.

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kgt
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by kgt

MarkTwain wrote:Forget trying to reason with him, his appeals to authority are used when they suit his purpose. Seemingly "speed" isn't a big performance aspect :lol:

The reason my dear friend says that pro cyclists, who care more than anyone about speed and performance, use tubulars.

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