clinchers v tubs Clinchers win

[mattr]

And FWIW, that test was utterly dire. All it really shows is that marketing is bollocks.
The difference in performance is negligible, well within experimental error.

Choose tyre/wheel format based on something other than speed.

[Kayrehn]

Safety is a big concern for me, and I like the fact that the whole package is lighter too. I hate it that clinchers go flat with a bang, and wouldn't want that to happen when riding in a group even if everyone is only riding at 30kmh. The feeling of your carbon clinchers hitting the tarmac rolling when you get a flat, man that's not good at all. Nice tubulars have a good feel that I enjoy as a recreational cyclist too. I recently discovered a slow leak, poured a little bit of orange sealant in, and it's good to go instantly. Safety, comfort and convenience, what's not to like about them?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Calnago]

...Clinchers handle just as well as tubs. Left, right. straight ,you can point them in all the directions

Uh, No, they don't. When you're leaning and carving a turn its not even close.

[boysa]

+1. The handling is very different. I haven't tried tubeless, but the difference between clincher and tubular is night and day.

[helldiver]

I find laughable that the test didn't mention anything at all about the glue job - glue or tape, which brand, how many layers of glue were used...
There are several tests (made in controlled environment) here which prove that this makes big difference, too many layers makes CRR higher and using tape makes it even worse.
Second important missing information is what was the actual tyre width in both cases ? They mention it's 25mm tyre in either clincher/tubular versions, but we know there could be pretty significant differences between the stated and actual width and the clincher tyre is much more affected by rim width. For tyre to perform optimally from aerodynamic standpoint, it should be 2-3mm narrower then brake track of the rim. Enve 4.5 has 27mm external front wheel width, so 24-25mm wide tyre should be optimal - it could be possible that clincher tyre which is restricted by 18,5mm inner width ended up in that range, while tubular was maybe 26-27mm when inflated ? That would be pretty hefty aero penalty for tubular...
It's interesting test, but it's sad that it omitted crucial information which could very well explain the performance difference.

[xena]

+1. The handling is very different. I haven't tried tubeless, but the difference between clincher and tubular is night and day.

Can I ask have you tried a lightweight clincher with a lightweight inner tube ?
You can get that nice round shape like a tub. Roll real nice and corner very well.

The difference is not that much.

[Calnago]

You will never get that nice round shape with a clincher that you can get with a tubular. There will always be a hard edge going up the sides where the bead has to sit. Always.

[sawyer]

@xena - you ask why everyone is ignoring speed.

They aren't.

I pointed out hour records have been done on tubs - to the best of my knowledge all hour records

You really think Wiggins was indifferent to tyre choice but his team took a keen interest is atmospheric pressure?

And speed is not just straight line rolling resistance remember ...

Another point re speed is that latex inners - essential to achieve the lowest crr - are much safer ensconced in a closed system, don't you think?

[xena]

@xena - you ask why everyone is ignoring speed.

They aren't.

I pointed out hour records have been done on tubs - to the best of my knowledge all hour records

You really think Wiggins was indifferent to tyre choice but his team took a keen interest is atmospheric pressure?

And speed is not just straight line rolling resistance remember ...

Another point re speed is that latex inners - essential to achieve the lowest crr - are much safer ensconced in a closed system, don't you think?

Good points sawyer.

[boysa]

@ Xena... I have tried many, many different combinations of tire/tube. I think some are better than others, especially latex tubes with wider tires/wider rims, but still none are on the same level as tubulars. Just my experience and opinion...

[sawyer]

@xena - you ask why everyone is ignoring speed.

They aren't.

I pointed out hour records have been done on tubs - to the best of my knowledge all hour records

You really think Wiggins was indifferent to tyre choice but his team took a keen interest is atmospheric pressure?

And speed is not just straight line rolling resistance remember ...

Another point re speed is that latex inners - essential to achieve the lowest crr - are much safer ensconced in a closed system, don't you think?

Good points sawyer.

Thank you

[davidalone]

@xena - you ask why everyone is ignoring speed.

They aren't.

I pointed out hour records have been done on tubs - to the best of my knowledge all hour records

You really think Wiggins was indifferent to tyre choice but his team took a keen interest is atmospheric pressure?

And speed is not just straight line rolling resistance remember ...

Another point re speed is that latex inners - essential to achieve the lowest crr - are much safer ensconced in a closed system, don't you think?

Good points sawyer.

NO one is arguing that clinchers aren't great. we all use them. myself included. our points are that pros use tubulars BECAUSE of different priorities than pure speed. no doubt clinchers are fast and practical and great for all of us. AG2R raced on reynolds clinchers for a season, back in 2010 or 2011, so yes it has been tried in the peloton.

Track is a different beast altogether. Track is perfectly smooth, so higher pressure, = better. which is why you see track riders ride at 160-200psi. Clinchers aren't usually built to withstand that sort of pressure. and a blowout on a clincher at 200 psi would be catastrophic. Road cycling is not on perfectly smooth tracks, and so optimal pressure is around 100-110 in most road conditions.

You seem not to understand why carbon tubulars are safer than clinchers. let me explain.
In a clincher, the tube is encase between both walls of the braking surface. Carbon is a bad conductor of heat. this means if your braking technique is bad- i.e. you drag your brakes alot ( happens all the time, if you're stuck on a single lane road behind a big truck, behind a slower rider on a tricky descent, etc.) your braking surface gets hot. VERY hot. this is a problem for both tubulars and clinchers.

so there are multiple problems for this:
1) the resin in the carbon melts and the carbon starts to delaminate. This literally means the clincher hook starts to weaken and fail. ( the braking surfaces start to become ineffective before this would happen, though.) A probem with the very early carbon rims, but nowadays unless you're buying a rim from china it has been mostly addressed, but still not impossible. this is instantly ride ending for a clincher. it would be dangerous to continue, because the high pressure of the tube within the clincher might literally push the tyre out of the failing clincher hook which would result in an instant flat and your tyre rolling off the wheel. you MIGHT still be able to continue on a tubular- albeit very, ery carefully- but I wouldnt recommend it.

2) The far likelier scenario, is that heat is transferred directly to the tube, melting the rubber and causing a tube blowout. this is 'instant flat' time. This is only a problem for clinchers. for a tubular the tubular is outside the brakewalls, with much better conducting environment, and doesnt gain as much heat. it is also insulated by the glue and several layers of cotton ply. can the glue melt off under high heat, POSSIBLE, but far less likely than a tube blowout.

you do fine bombing don your descents on your clinchers- great. so do I. but the science is there. if I had to bet my life on it, or if I were a pro rider, I would ride tubulars.

[KWalker]

Hour records have been done on tubs because track tires are primarily tubs, thus track wheels are tubs. Different surface and since track wheels don't need a brake track and have different spacing perhaps it would be too annoying to swap in a disc.

Also, don't track tires use a higher pressure and in some cases something other than o2?

[MarkTwain]

I find laughable that the test didn't mention anything at all about the glue job - glue or tape, which brand, how many layers of glue were used...
There are several tests (made in controlled environment) here which prove that this makes big difference, too many layers makes CRR higher and using tape makes it even worse.
Second important missing information is what was the actual tyre width in both cases ? They mention it's 25mm tyre in either clincher/tubular versions, but we know there could be pretty significant differences between the stated and actual width and the clincher tyre is much more affected by rim width. For tyre to perform optimally from aerodynamic standpoint, it should be 2-3mm narrower then brake track of the rim. Enve 4.5 has 27mm external front wheel width, so 24-25mm wide tyre should be optimal - it could be possible that clincher tyre which is restricted by 18,5mm inner width ended up in that range, while tubular was maybe 26-27mm when inflated ? That would be pretty hefty aero penalty for tubular...
It's interesting test, but it's sad that it omitted crucial information which could very well explain the performance difference.

Given you're clinging to a 5 year old study and refuse to accept any data past that point then nothing anyone is going to say is likely to convince you.

Carry on riding tubs.

[Getter]

1) the resin in the carbon melts and the carbon starts to delaminate. This literally means the clincher hook starts to weaken and fail. ( the braking surfaces start to become ineffective before this would happen, though.) A probem with the very early carbon rims, but nowadays unless you're buying a rim from china it has been mostly addressed, but still not impossible. this is instantly ride ending for a clincher. it would be dangerous to continue, because the high pressure of the tube within the clincher might literally push the tyre out of the failing clincher hook which would result in an instant flat and your tyre rolling off the wheel. you MIGHT still be able to continue on a tubular- albeit very, ery carefully- but I wouldnt recommend it.

I saw a rear 303 clincher fail like that in 2012. Zipp wanted the entire bike shipped to them, and so it was. Zipp sent back a new rear wheel, tire along with a new derailleur and shifters.