So a few days ago I posted in the "Open mold wide profile carbon wheels" thread with pictures and weights of a wheel build I recently finished using 303 knockoff rims I got off alibaba. It was intended to be informative in nature since I had received several responses from members on this forum asking about this specific rim. I intentionally waited a week or so after the wheel build was complete before posting in case the quality was bad and I encountered problems during building. I specifically stated that I had not ridden them enough to give any first impressions other than "they did not explode immediately." I also spent some effort to document any issues in quality that I encountered during building, as many others in various threads have done here.
A few days later, as I check November Cycle's blog, I see a very familiar photo at the top. They had flagrantly stolen my photo and used it on their blog as an example of shoddy Chinese workmanship. They go on to portray me specifically as a dumb customer with "confirmation bias" who will "accept a lot to justify that they made the right purchase." Now these notions by themselves are not without merit, as there are plenty of threads discussing this exact themes, but my issue is that they have used me specifically in their blog as a way to bash the decisions of cheap consumers who won't buy their wheels. So I posted a comment on their blog calling them out for stealing my photo and mis-characterizing myself and others who use unbranded carbon wheels. And of course, within 24 hours my comment is deleted, and my photo remains on their site.
So since November Bicycles is unwilling to discuss their behavior on their own site, I thought I would share my experience here, where it's likely more people will visit than on their blog. I feel that their actions demonstrate incredible arrogance and disrespect to the majority of their customer base since the only time I hear November's name in a discussion is as an alternative to Chinese carbon. Dismissing the choices of myself and others as ill-informed or self-justifying is not going to win them any business over their primary competitor. The least they could have done was to PM me on the forum they stole my photo from. If this is the way they want to treat their customers, then so be it, they can do without my business.
My beef with November Bicycles
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Tinea Pedis
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That would be average for a John Doe with a blog.
For a company like November...well, that's plain embarrassing.
For a company like November...well, that's plain embarrassing.
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kulivontot wrote:They had flagrantly stolen my photo and used it on their blog as an example of shoddy Chinese workmanship.
It's probably not worth your time/expense, and publicly shaming them is a far more powerful tool, but most IP (intellectual property) lawyers can handle this fairly easily.
Dave @ November posts on Slowtwitch, you may have more luck over there:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gfo ... er%20Dave;
I will send him a message via ST, pointing him to this thread, hopefully this issue is resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction.
Last edited by rijndael on Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinea Pedis
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The post in question from the OP
viewtopic.php?p=1102303#p1102303
November Bikes, when you notice the spike in referrals from WW and track it here, drop me a line. Admins would not mind a chat
viewtopic.php?p=1102303#p1102303
November Bikes, when you notice the spike in referrals from WW and track it here, drop me a line. Admins would not mind a chat
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NovemberDave
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Hi -
Thanks to rijndael for giving me the heads up on this thread, I wasn't aware of it.
Let me begin by saying the we have never, ever, not once, deleted a comment from our blog. Never. So I can't say what happened, but we never saw the comment come in (we get email notices when comments post) and never saw it on the site (I directly check for comments at least daily), and categorically did not delete it. Deleting posts is the absolute opposite of the way we operate - we totally welcome comment/debate/challenge/whatever.
To Kulivontot, I've removed the picture. I apologize if what I wrote offended, but I think it was rather innocuous - I merely said that you were happy with your purchase despite an obvious flaw. We've never gotten a rim from our supplier with something like that, and were we to get one it wouldn't get laced much less make it out the door. There's a calculus of what one expects in light of price paid and other factors, and at the time of that post your wheels seemed to make you happy. I tried to be clear that I wasn't calling you or any other purchaser of Chinese carbon wheels/rims into question (which is something I wouldn't intentionally ever do), rather I was trying to point out a very clear, well established, well documented, and well-taken-advantage-of psychological principle. Buyers at every price point will display this behavior. It's behind every 30 day money back guarantee you've ever seen. The worst thing I called anyone in that post was "human."
As far as using the picture, I apologize. I recall seeing a post in the thread where the picture was posted, saying something to the effect of "hey my wheel is featured on the November blog." Perhaps I should have had misgivings about posting it in the first place, but if I had, that post would have allayed them. The picture has been removed. This was a case where I thought anonymity of source was actually beneficial, specifically so as not to be seen as directly calling anyone out. We're generally crazy aware of stuff like that - if there's an IP issue going on here, might one first look to the dimples in the picture?
Perhaps people are missing that the entire point of that series of posts was that I think China Carbon, Inc (there's no well established way of referring to it, I often think of it as how I've just labeled it, which is a valueless label in either the positive or negative direction) will get big, and establish itself in the mainstream on the world stage.
We, and others like us, get held to a high standard. I think that's entirely justified, as we promise high standards. If there was one sentence or sentiment in the post that I could have elaborated on, it was the one in which I discussed that - that we feel like we have to sell perfect products, but that people can be made happy with products with what I (and clearly the OP, for having posted it) identify as obvious flaws. We literally feel like we are walking a tightrope high above the ground, with no net, and kill ourselves to deliver our best every time. If you're happy with the wheels, it's not for me to take that away.
In evaluating this whole thing, ask yourself who else talks about these things as frankly as we do. What other company would make the argument, on its own site, that Chinese Carbon will become a big and legitimate thing? Spend a few weeks combing through the posts and comments (that's how long it will take) and read the discourse we've had in them. You could not possibly come away from that with the impression that we delete comments. I can't think of any evidence that anyone would find, anywhere, that would lead you to think of us as using forums, EVEN OUR OWN, as flagrant sales vehicles. We punch way above our weight on learning and testing, and we share that information totally freely, as unvarnished as possible.
If you need a great example of this, we wind tunnel tested both Kinlin XC279 and Pacenti SL23 builds this summer. Neither manufacturer had ever bothered to do it, nor had any wheel builder. We are FAR from the dominant seller of either one, but it was of interest to us, and when we learn, we share. How many times has that info been referred to without crediting us? How many purchase decisions have been made using info we've provided but not been transacted through us? An absolute ton in both cases.
So, I'm sorry to have used your picture and I'm sorry if you thought we were disparaging you. We didn't intend to. Had we been aware of any displeasure about this in any regard, we would have addressed it. If nothing else, we're easy to reach through our site.
Thanks
Thanks to rijndael for giving me the heads up on this thread, I wasn't aware of it.
Let me begin by saying the we have never, ever, not once, deleted a comment from our blog. Never. So I can't say what happened, but we never saw the comment come in (we get email notices when comments post) and never saw it on the site (I directly check for comments at least daily), and categorically did not delete it. Deleting posts is the absolute opposite of the way we operate - we totally welcome comment/debate/challenge/whatever.
To Kulivontot, I've removed the picture. I apologize if what I wrote offended, but I think it was rather innocuous - I merely said that you were happy with your purchase despite an obvious flaw. We've never gotten a rim from our supplier with something like that, and were we to get one it wouldn't get laced much less make it out the door. There's a calculus of what one expects in light of price paid and other factors, and at the time of that post your wheels seemed to make you happy. I tried to be clear that I wasn't calling you or any other purchaser of Chinese carbon wheels/rims into question (which is something I wouldn't intentionally ever do), rather I was trying to point out a very clear, well established, well documented, and well-taken-advantage-of psychological principle. Buyers at every price point will display this behavior. It's behind every 30 day money back guarantee you've ever seen. The worst thing I called anyone in that post was "human."
As far as using the picture, I apologize. I recall seeing a post in the thread where the picture was posted, saying something to the effect of "hey my wheel is featured on the November blog." Perhaps I should have had misgivings about posting it in the first place, but if I had, that post would have allayed them. The picture has been removed. This was a case where I thought anonymity of source was actually beneficial, specifically so as not to be seen as directly calling anyone out. We're generally crazy aware of stuff like that - if there's an IP issue going on here, might one first look to the dimples in the picture?
Perhaps people are missing that the entire point of that series of posts was that I think China Carbon, Inc (there's no well established way of referring to it, I often think of it as how I've just labeled it, which is a valueless label in either the positive or negative direction) will get big, and establish itself in the mainstream on the world stage.
We, and others like us, get held to a high standard. I think that's entirely justified, as we promise high standards. If there was one sentence or sentiment in the post that I could have elaborated on, it was the one in which I discussed that - that we feel like we have to sell perfect products, but that people can be made happy with products with what I (and clearly the OP, for having posted it) identify as obvious flaws. We literally feel like we are walking a tightrope high above the ground, with no net, and kill ourselves to deliver our best every time. If you're happy with the wheels, it's not for me to take that away.
In evaluating this whole thing, ask yourself who else talks about these things as frankly as we do. What other company would make the argument, on its own site, that Chinese Carbon will become a big and legitimate thing? Spend a few weeks combing through the posts and comments (that's how long it will take) and read the discourse we've had in them. You could not possibly come away from that with the impression that we delete comments. I can't think of any evidence that anyone would find, anywhere, that would lead you to think of us as using forums, EVEN OUR OWN, as flagrant sales vehicles. We punch way above our weight on learning and testing, and we share that information totally freely, as unvarnished as possible.
If you need a great example of this, we wind tunnel tested both Kinlin XC279 and Pacenti SL23 builds this summer. Neither manufacturer had ever bothered to do it, nor had any wheel builder. We are FAR from the dominant seller of either one, but it was of interest to us, and when we learn, we share. How many times has that info been referred to without crediting us? How many purchase decisions have been made using info we've provided but not been transacted through us? An absolute ton in both cases.
So, I'm sorry to have used your picture and I'm sorry if you thought we were disparaging you. We didn't intend to. Had we been aware of any displeasure about this in any regard, we would have addressed it. If nothing else, we're easy to reach through our site.
Thanks
It's up to photo hero and rights owner, but…. " I'm sorry " is cheap. Cost nothing. Apologies, and stop damaging won't cancel that facts happened and damages has been done. Many lawsuits won based on that ( basically all of them ).
being on photo owner place, I would be extraordinary extremely unusually kind for them, and as compensation will accept some nice 6k-8k $ bicycle. NovemberBikes should be extremely happy avoiding lawsuit which would ( and will ) cost them 100.000 usd +.
Go to any photographers forum and check how weap and pay these who stole image…
Plus comes intention of use ( show "hero" in bad light ), commercial use….
Maybe I wouldn't be so kind …. ?
They won't "talk" ? Surprised ? What you expect frm thief ? They stole your property and you want to discuss ? Send lawyers
Usually 1 letter starting with something like this : " Rosenbaum&Bush Attorney's at Law " make them very very cooperative.
Keep screenshots, go to lawyer. Good and expensive. November Bikes pays the bill
).being on photo owner place, I would be extraordinary extremely unusually kind for them, and as compensation will accept some nice 6k-8k $ bicycle. NovemberBikes should be extremely happy avoiding lawsuit which would ( and will ) cost them 100.000 usd +.
Go to any photographers forum and check how weap and pay these who stole image…
Plus comes intention of use ( show "hero" in bad light ), commercial use….
Maybe I wouldn't be so kind …. ?
They won't "talk" ? Surprised ? What you expect frm thief ? They stole your property and you want to discuss ? Send lawyers
Usually 1 letter starting with something like this : " Rosenbaum&Bush Attorney's at Law " make them very very cooperative.
Keep screenshots, go to lawyer. Good and expensive. November Bikes pays the bill
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain
I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that
Mark Twain
I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that
I'll avoid throwing fuel on a fire with a long post, but there is only one party that connected their (screen)name or these forums to the November post, or used the words "shoddy" or "dumb" and it wasn't November.
As for armchair lawyering, under US law (where November is located) this is dead center classic fair use. If you post something on the internet, others might comment on it. Shocking.
As for armchair lawyering, under US law (where November is located) this is dead center classic fair use. If you post something on the internet, others might comment on it. Shocking.
Yes, I agree. They're more forthcoming with data than the vast majority of companies in our industry.boysa wrote:Deception is not their game.
Something is askew about the blog comment that was "deleted". I know I've posted a comment to a blog, it looks like it's been posted (to me), but it's actually in a moderation queue that requires approval before it's posted publicly. If I closed my browser and revisited the page, my comment appears to be missing. It would then appear later when the approval step has been completed. I'm not saying that's what has happened here, but the OPs experience doesn't mesh with my impression of NB.
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NovemberDave
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To clarify two things briefly:
1 The photo was removed out of courtesy, not for any legal reason. As people have stated, this falls under fair use
2 We actually don't moderate comments. The page says it has been submitted, not submitted for review or moderation. When submitting a comment, you have to hit "submit comment" and not Enter after you do the captcha thing. I make that mistake all the time. Once you hit submit, the "your comment has been submitted" notice displays. Hit refresh, and you will see your comment. We don't moderate, and have never removed or edited a comment. If someone was really inappropriate - hate speech or something like that, or I guess some kind of advertisement - we'd take that down, but neither has happened yet. Every comment that's ever been submitted is there to read. Addressing criticism or whatever is a much more effective practice than deleting it
Thanks
1 The photo was removed out of courtesy, not for any legal reason. As people have stated, this falls under fair use
2 We actually don't moderate comments. The page says it has been submitted, not submitted for review or moderation. When submitting a comment, you have to hit "submit comment" and not Enter after you do the captcha thing. I make that mistake all the time. Once you hit submit, the "your comment has been submitted" notice displays. Hit refresh, and you will see your comment. We don't moderate, and have never removed or edited a comment. If someone was really inappropriate - hate speech or something like that, or I guess some kind of advertisement - we'd take that down, but neither has happened yet. Every comment that's ever been submitted is there to read. Addressing criticism or whatever is a much more effective practice than deleting it
Thanks
