The Science and Perception of Bikes

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

martinko
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:08 am
Location: Slovakia

by martinko

Franklin wrote:With a too low saddle I was talking a bout a cm or so. Most people simply don't notice. In fact lab tests show no reliable loss of efficiency. If we are talking more than that even an oaf like me will start to notice.

On your MTB, I'll be very carefull as I'm not a physician nor was I withness of what happened... but if the saddle was just 1 cm too low (which ofc I don't know!) considerng the dynamics of cycling I seriously doubt that would cause such problems in isolation.

On Cleats: cleat placement is indeed much more tricky as that causes direct strain/friction. Yet that said: There's no scientific method to adjust cleat angles, so everyone in the world just uses a position that feels best. This is why a 5% leeway each way is so nice to have^^.


Yes, you are right. On that MTB it might have been more than 1cm, maybe 2. But now, on my road bike, I sometimes feel milimeter changes. It might be just in my brain, but sometimes like other leg muscles work when saddle is even few milimeters higher. Also, changing the raise of saddle changes the reach.

Seatpost had once slipped down on my winter bike during the ride (first time I noticed it and then fixed it). I felt in legs that something changed (muscles got tired strangely). It might have been 0.5cm, or more.

Franklin
Posts: 400
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:09 am

by Franklin

Tinea Pedis wrote:Funnily I have a steel and Ti frame. Same groupsets, saddles, fit and wheels (swapped between the two bikes). I certainly can appreciate and know the difference in ride feel between the two.
Of course you can, that's a no brainer. I can feel the difference between my own bikes as well (steel and OS Alu). But I only notice the first minute and then I forget. Note that those are both pretty stable, so it's easy to forget.

But if I gave you frames you did not know and let you ride on it you would not be able to feel what material it would be. At least all blind tests point to that being almost impossible.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



mjduct
Posts: 657
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:19 pm

by mjduct

de zwarten wrote:
Franklin wrote:
de zwarten wrote:I could do the same on an old steel bike with 8 bars pressure in the tires and it will be hell. In anyway, carbon wheels in PR are still nonsense whatever Zipp wants us to believe: .

So those comfort claims that Zipp makes about their wheels outperforming other wheels in Roubaix is ridiculous. The can claim those wheels are more aero, but nothing more.


I've never seen the disputed claims, but I took a set of Zipp 404 tubulars (race day wheels) on my normal Sunday ride today they were glued up and I thought why not? this ride crosses 8 or so sets of railroad tracks and some pretty nasty roads around 2 cement quarries that we pass, and the zipps running 23mm tangentes at 115front- 120 rear psi handled the nastiness at speed better than my custom DT Swiss hubs with HED Belgium rims 32spokes front and rear with 28mm Clements at 75front 80rear that I rode the same route with a week ago.

There was also an issue on the ride that caused me to go off-road to avoid a wreck and put me in the bar ditch for about 100 yards, I was able to maintain control, avoid a barb wire fence recover, climb back on the rode and catch up to the group without a hitch. The wheels were fine on some rough surfaces with out the benefit of fat rubber to protect them.

I would have agreed with you yesterday but my butt and hands and legs disagree with you today. And Zipp is the 3rd brand if carbon wheel I've owned after 10+ years on velocitys, mavic, campagnolo/ fulcrum, easton, HED and other aluminum rims. Other carbon rims have shaken me to death on this ride, but not so with the zipps today. So I think Its not placebo effect from carbon...

I'm not gonna make the zipps my everyday wheels, too much $$$ to risk, but I would not hesitate to peel off the skinny rubber and glue on some knobbies for cross races, but the $170 campy khamisins will stay on the cross bike for training.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Tinea Pedis
Posts: 8615
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Contact:

by Tinea Pedis

Franklin wrote:
But if I gave you frames you did not know and let you ride on it you would not be able to feel what material it would be. At least all blind tests point to that being almost impossible.

I never claimed that. If I were that good at reviewing bikes I'd start my own magazine.

Point was, my reality is not always dictated by perception. In fact, I've reviewed 'Fondo' style bikes that have been easily stiff and nimble enough to have passed as a more 'race-like' set up. At least for the sizes I ride.

User avatar
de zwarten
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:32 pm
Location: belgium

by de zwarten

mjduct wrote:I've never seen the disputed claims, but I took a set of Zipp 404 tubulars (race day wheels) on my normal Sunday ride today they were glued up and I thought why not? this ride crosses 8 or so sets of railroad tracks and some pretty nasty roads around 2 cement quarries that we pass, and the zipps running 23mm tangentes at 115front- 120 rear psi handled the nastiness at speed better than my custom DT Swiss hubs with HED Belgium rims 32spokes front and rear with 28mm Clements at 75front 80rear that I rode the same route with a week ago.
...
Other carbon rims have shaken me to death on this ride, but not so with the zipps today. So I think Its not placebo effect from carbon...
...
I'm not gonna make the zipps my everyday wheels, too much $$$ to risk, but I would not hesitate to peel off the skinny rubber and glue on some knobbies for cross races, but the $170 campy khamisins will stay on the cross bike for training.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


interesting at least , that even with higher pressure the (smaller) tires/tubes were more comfortable?
But did you also want to say that the carbon rims were more comfortable?
If so, two remarks:
1. you didn't seem to compare rims here, but rims+tires+pressure were all different? So it's hard to blame the rims alone, no?
2. I do think that carbon is very strong and is a very good material for rims and frames, no doubt about it. I just think that, when the ex-Zipp guy first states that it's mainly tires that determine comfort, but still emphasizes that Zipp 303 rims are more comfortable than rim X... he is not really consequent in his arguments. If rims don't count that much, Zipp 303's comfort is thus not relevant.
Carbon rims might be the most performant even for Roubaix these days, but as long as I'm not among the first ones in Roubaix on the velodrome somewhere in April, I wouldn't risk my Hyperons (Pozzato does) or any other on those brutal roads.

mjduct
Posts: 657
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:19 pm

by mjduct

For sure it wasn't a scientific test, just something I found interesting in light of this thread and the ST article I read a while back and thought was interesting. If blindfolded I might not be able to tell you which is which... But I could tell you which one felt better/ faster and in the end that's all I really care about.

It's what in the car world they call the "ass-dyno"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
phatphuk
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:39 pm

by phatphuk

BeeSeeBee wrote:"...an attempt to certify our cycling credibility to others by making claims to appear as experts..."


You've totally nailed it! Right there! :thumbup:

User avatar
phatphuk
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:39 pm

by phatphuk

...I'd also add to that, that once people have spent all that money, they need to justify it to themselves by parroting the marketing spiel that compelled them to fork over such obscene amounts of dough in the first place.

Post Reply