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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:14 pm 
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I doubt it. They bought it of Aliexpress. They were hoping it would be inferior. The looks and ride quality proved it.


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Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:14 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:58 pm 
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It's interesting to see this debate go on. Meanwhile in the watch world there is a similar debate, but the lines and understanding of 'fake' vs. 'homage' vs. 'real' are a bit more clear and there seems to be a general agreement on those things. Those who own the 'real' watches are for the most part just fine with the homage watches, and there is a mostly held agreement among all collectors that the fakes are terrible... but again, they've come to an understanding of 'fake' vs. 'homage' vs. 'real'

In terms of quality? It's been shown that in most cases (pun intended) the mechanisms coming from the homage market are just as good as their 'real' counterparts when price is considered, and in some instances it has been shown through careful, detailed analysis, that the mechanisms from China (for example, Seagull) have not only been based off of their Swiss counterparts but also exceeded them in design improvements. Again, the cost comes into play here. In the end of everything, yes those real, high end watches are masterpieces - there is no doubt about that - but functionality wise and quality wise the gaps are not as large as people may think. In the end the real items are valued for their prestige and the details, sometimes history for aficionados... but that's about it.

People who buy the homage watches know what they are getting, and they do eventually want to buy the real deal... but in the meantime, the homage watches out there keep ticking just fine.

Coming back to the cycling world, reading the anger and fury that some people have over this debate is rather amusing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:08 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:

People who buy the homage watches know what they are getting, and they do eventually want to buy the real deal... but in the meantime, the homage watches out there keep ticking just fine.



I don't have too much of a problem if people know what they are buying. I get mad at the people that trying to sell fake frames as the real deal. There has been Ebay sellers, Craigslist, bike forums, even Pinarello dealers that have done this.


Would you consider a homage watch the same as an open mold frame? Or would it be a Dogma replica that has another name? Or both?


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:03 am 
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@Prendefreu - can you answer this - do you own any counterfeit bikes or bike parts? Would you knowingly fit fake parts to any bike you or your family ride? Or would you knowingly fit counterfeit parts to the cars you drive?


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:04 am 
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Mildly off-topic, but it appears to have gone the other direction for a certain large auction site regarding counterfeit coins. Have they ever done anything about counterfeit bikes?
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topi ... _ID=178336


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Ozrider wrote:
@Prendefreu - can you answer this - do you own any counterfeit bikes or bike parts? Would you knowingly fit fake parts to any bike you or your family ride? Or would you knowingly fit counterfeit parts to the cars you drive?


You missed what I wrote completely.
Go back, re-read, try again.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:05 pm 
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bombertodd wrote:
Would you consider a homage watch the same as an open mold frame? Or would it be a Dogma replica that has another name? Or both?


I'd say an 'homage watch' would be on the equivalent in the cycling world to the open-mold frames. Many have design elements that pull from the big ones, and in some cases they were improvements (as was the case with the original Scott Foil, which had seatpost-retaining issues, but the open-mold variation improved and solved that issue from the start). So if someone buys a frame with the Pinarello shape but clearly knows it is NOT a Pinarello, and it is labeled completely differently, in no-way making itself to be a Pinarello at all, you can consider it an homage. The person buying it knows full well they don't have a Pina. If it fails they know full well that it wasn't a Pina that failed. The person buying it wanted the shape, so let them have it.

Let's give an example in the watch world: look up "Marina Militare" on google, eBay, or watchuseek (a massive watch-collector forum). You will see watches that are homage designs to Panarei watches. There are plenty of sellers of the MM's on eBay, but even better sellers have their own sites or can be had through the Chinese version of eBay and it is better to go through those individual sellers/sites for customer service, options, warranty, etc:. .... see the parallels here to carbon frames?
Now here's the crucial bit: people who are buying these KNOW full well they are not Panarei. People who buy these WANT to buy a Panarei... actually some do own the real thing too, but wear the homage on a day-to-day basis or when traveling, or for other reasons to protect their high-end watch. On eBay there are sellers who are supplying these watches with false dials, or even just the dials themselves, so they would read "Panarei" and look like the real thing. That's where the watch-world has drawn the line: there is no faking the real thing, to do so would be bad for Panarei and give others (who are not watch people) a false impression of the true quality that is Panarei.
Going back to the watches that are labelled "Marina Militare"... people love them. While not all are perfect (estimate 1/500 have issues), their movement is accurate, the mechanisms are better than one would think, and they look beautiful. When a passer buy asks "Hey, is that a Panarei" the answer is no, it's an homage to one and "I wish I could afford a Panarei, but in the meantime I'll rock this" ... for example.

Back to bikes:

Now if someone buys a frame that is labelled as Pina, then we're getting into the 'fake' territory. This is where the brand Pinarello should (and perhaps does, but other people may be extrapolating beyond it) have issue because if those frames fail, then it makes the brand Pinarello look bad in the eyes of passer-bys or the casual observer who did not know that the failed frame was, perhaps, not a real Pinarello frame.

There is also issue with the purchaser:
-Either they were duped into buying a fake, which is unfortunate because people look for a deal and it's human nature to want to attain to a status symbol with minimal effort.
-Or they purchase the fake knowing full well that the object in question is a mis-representation of the brand they are upholding.

In that latter case they, the purchaser, are doing the brand itself a disservice. They would have been better off buying a frame the 'looks' like the shape they want to have (for status purposes) and leaving it blank or otherwise.

It's also interesting to see how these conversations tend to have people get in arms about the topic and fine lines which we can actually point to get blurred and blanket statements get brought out. This is the case with open-mold vs. non-open-mold vs. proprietary frames, which should be remembered in the conversation.


In the furniture world, does anyone remember those 'floating shelves' designs? When they were first popularized (ie, non-elite furniture... in the cycling world elite-furniture might be a boutique frame, popularized would be a branded, manufactured frame for sale to the general public) DWR, Design Within Reach, started selling them. They were pretty damn expensive, something like $300-$500 USD. But they worked fabulously.
IKEA put out a series of affordable ones. They were not the real-thing. They were not DWR. Yet people bought them in the droves. And that stuff sucked. But they were labelled IKEA, not DWR, and when they failed no one was saying "oh my DWR shelf sucks!"... So did DWR get all upset over this? No. They would have gotten upset if someone was selling the poor-quality shelves and labeling them as DWR, but that did not happen.

This is were Pinarello is, or should be, upset. As for the shape labelled as something else? Let people have their desires for a Pinarello-like shape. They'll still want the real thing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:42 pm 
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prendrefeu wrote:
Ozrider wrote:
@Prendefreu - can you answer this - do you own any counterfeit bikes or bike parts? Would you knowingly fit fake parts to any bike you or your family ride? Or would you knowingly fit counterfeit parts to the cars you drive?


You missed what I wrote completely.
Go back, re-read, try again.

Or you could answer his question...


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:47 pm 
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Ozrider wrote:
@Prendefreu - can you answer this - do you own any counterfeit bikes or bike parts? Would you knowingly fit fake parts to any bike you or your family ride? Or would you knowingly fit counterfeit parts to the cars you drive?


Ok, for Samuel Langhorne Clemens' request.

1. No, I don't.
2. No on counterfeit. Open-mold? Yes, definitely if budget is a concern. Which it is.
3. No, but not all of the parts on my Volvo are Volvo parts. Why? Because other brands do certain things better than Volvo originally designed them, or they are better spec than my car had when it was first built. Would I buy a 'fake' part that is labeled 'Volvo' ? No. Would I buy a part that fits my car and is labelled something else? Perhaps, it depends on that product's qualities and price.

So did you get what you wanted, Oz?

You should have asked: would you buy a kit car? The ones that are made to "look" like a Ferrari when really they are Toyota Corolla in frame and engine.
No, I wouldn't in that case because the Ferrari performs better and I'm interested in performance, not looks. Would I consider buying a Hawk kit car, which looks like the Lancia Stratos? It has a Hawk frame, 'coffin' wheels which look like the original, and I could fit it with the original Lancia/Ferrari engine or a better more modern one. Only if I had extra money for shits & giggles and couldn't afford the ultra-rare original rally Stratos. But it wouldn't be my main car either, just for fun, and I wouldn't claim it to be a Lancia Stratos - although it would drive just as badly and fall apart in the same way as the original.

With what I wrote in the first post, in the second post, and even here, there's a clear distinction between the counterfeit vs. the non-counterfeit items. People are lopping them together under one blanket, which is unfortunate.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Well, in the hands of the consumer (as opposed to the manufacturer's desire for brand protection) the issue should be down to rider safety. If you can ride a fake component and not jeopardize your safety, go ahead. Among the stuff I might put in this category might be fake Pro Tour/Assos/Rapha kit, etc. I don't know if I could say that frames and other structural components could be universally put in that category. I guess that the problem is: how do you know.

As for time pieces, what is it with WW guys and watches, anyway? I was at a wedding last weekend and a few of us were sitting-around bored while the girls were rattling-on in Calabrese. One of the guys had a fake IWC Miramar and we were comparing it to mine. Beside the fake being heavier (the Miramar is a great WW pic), it did the job for him. It probably keeps time about as well as mine does, too. The difference between the fake IWC Miramar and the fake Pinarello is that Daniel is very unlikely to be physically harmed by the fake watch (other than his wrist turning green). I am not comfortable saying that about a frame.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:22 pm 
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Do like Sarto and bond a proprietary electronic chip in the frame with all the info.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:57 am 
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Indeed - and given every dog and cat here in Spain has to carry a chip, I dont believe they can be that expensive to produce, and it serves to reinforce the dealer network as well...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:26 pm 
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prendrefeu it's 'Panerai'. A huge trend a few years ago but nothing exceptional as an instrument.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Sorry, switched the e out. Same intention.

I agree it's nothing exceptional as an instrument, yet trendy - often a bit like some frames. ;) :lol:

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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:18 pm 


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