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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm
Posts: 156
Miller76 wrote:
Hi guys and happy new year...

I'm looking for a new bike, and with this new bike comes the realization that my racing days are way way behind me!!!
My current bike is a Van Dessel Rivet, Enve forks, bars, stem and seat post. Hollowgram cranks, EE brakes and Red shifters and mechs. It's a great bike, nice and lively but a little aggressive. Over the last year I caught the gran fondo bug and rode as many as I could. I ride every weekend, between 40-60 per ride.

I don't race and my commute to work (90 minutes each way) prevents me from riding during the week. I have Cannondale CX for bad weather winter riding.

I've done a decent amount of research looking at the typical Sportive type bikes from Cannondale, Specialized, BMC and Trek but was wondering if i would be better served moving away from these mainstream companies and looking at something handbuilt etc.. The new bike can be frame only and I'll move over the components from the Van Dessel or a complete new bike. Not averse to disc brakes..
Of all the mainstream companies, I did not like the BMC offering, and I really liked the new Cannondale Synapse Hi-Mod

TL;DR I am looking for suggestions on a new sportive style bike - show me yours!!

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My two top choices would be to look at a Colnago c-59 or to Get a Seven Axiom and have the bike ordered with compliant tubing. I thin you are on to something looking for a top notch comfortable road frame.

_________________
Colnago C-59 Italia PR99 colour schema
Shimano Ultegra 6800
Shimano Dura Ace C-24

Trek 5200
Shimano Ultegra 6500
Mavic krysium Elite


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm
Posts: 272
Searching for a new ~58cm sub-1250g frameset, most likely carbon. My riding style and body dimensions mean that a Gran Fondo style of geometry works best, i.e. more Stack and less Reach than a traditional race bike.

These are the framesets that I really excite me but they don't fit correctly.

Colnago C60
Trek Madone Project One
Scott Addict
BMC SLR01
Storck Fascenario 0.7

Can anyone suggest something along these lines that has a less aggressive position?

I am leaning towards a high-end carbon frameset from a large company to leverage the latest and greatest in carbon technology but I haven't ruled out a custom carbon or Ti bike.

:beerchug:


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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:18 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Posts: 187
Did you consider an endurance or sportive geometry? Many to pick from
Or you can split the difference and get a new Emonda with H2 geometry.

How tall are you and what is your cycling inseam?
How high a handlebar do you prefer...aka how much saddle to bar drop if any?
What is your preferred saddle tip to handlebar center dimension?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm
Posts: 272
I would consider a frameset with sportive geometry if it was still very lightweight and stiff, i.e. racy. Which models would you recommend?

The Emonda and Madone H2 58cm are close but they have too much reach and not enough stack. The Domane 58cm fits well but is heavier than I want.

I am 187cm tall, BB center to saddle top is ~815mm and I ride ~6cm of bar drop. My preferred dimensions are approx. Stack 605mm, Reach 380mm.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:01 am 
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Posts: 187
Boy do you have long legs for your height at just under 6'2".
Lets try to establish something. Do you also have very long arms?
You seem to know your bike dimensions and stack and reach dimensions.
But lets see how cramped or stretched out you ride. What is your preferred dimension for tip of saddle to handlebar centerline? Also, how much saddle setback do you prefer?...dropping a plumb line off the front of the saddle...horizontal distance to BB center?

I will give you a general bit of advice. I know a lot about bike fit. When a guy typically asks for a very specific geometry when he/she is typically under the bell curve of normal proportion and size, their fit is typically not optimal.

If you provide the above we can get you headed in the right direction.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm
Posts: 272
I am all ears and looking for advice!

Yes my legs are long for my height. My arms are 'average'.

I run a stubby Tri-style saddle so I don't know if the tip-to-bars or tip-to-BB-center number will be of any use? I run a 25mm setback post with the saddle about 2/3 of the way back to get a leg geometry (KOPS-ish) that works for me. How can I take a measurement that will give you more insight?

Overall I would say my position on the bike is cramped compared to pro riders but this is partly due to excessive saddle/perineum pressure I experience when trying to stretch out lower and longer, hence the Tri saddle with massive cutout.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:36 am 
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@Redracer: just a couple of things:
1) don't look for anything more than very broad generalizations regarding fit over the internet.
2) I am 6'1" (just shy of 185cm). I have a 91cm inseam. My saddle height is 803mm. I don't feel your leg length is abnormally long at all. My saddle to handlebar drop is 8-9cm, depending on bike. I ride a Colnago 61 Traditional. I also have a C50 traditional in 62cm. I run Deda (-8 degree) stems and 3t (-6 degree) stems. Spacers above the 15mm top cap range from 3mm (bit of red bling) on my C59 to 8mm on my EPQ to 2cm on my C50 (but the C50 has the older outboard Chris King headset. When you talk about "reach" you should really talk about it in the context of your bar height. In other words, can you get there somehow? Suppose you took a 62cm C59 and added a couple centimeters of spacers under the stem. You'd pretty much be at your preferred saddle height and drop and it would look great. As you add spacers it brings the bars back.as well. If I was looking at comparable bikes it'd be a Specialized 58 or a Trek 60. A Trek 60 in H2 geo might be just fine. I guess I think there "may" be a number of bikes that will fit you just fine so long as you go to the right person to sort things out.
3) Circle back to point 1. All you are going to get over the internet is very broad generalizations. Find someone that can see you on the bike and go from there. Good luck. And when you're comparing geometries of different bikes make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

_________________
My Colnago C59
My Special Colnago EPQ


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:22 pm
Posts: 773
Location: Brooklyn
I am also 187cm. I run a 56cm Roubaix SL3 S-works as I have a shorter upper body and short arms. I had a Tarmac before my first fitting and I got the Roubaix to get a longer HT as the rest of the geo was the same as the Tarmac. I still run all the spacers I can to get the bar high enough. I am around 780cm saddle height. My fitter wanted it higher but it never felt right right and bother and old angle injury. My arms and shoulders used to get sore and painful on long rides but that is all gone now after I got the front height to better fit my build.

I also like the longer wheelbase and lower bb of the Roubaix, it can run bigger tires and is more comfortable.

If you want to know more I learned a lot from this interview

http://redkiteprayer.com/2014/02/specia ... l4-part-i/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:23 pm
Posts: 187
RedRacer wrote:
highdraw wrote:
Boy do you have long legs for your height at just under 6'2".
Lets try to establish something. Do you also have very long arms?
You seem to know your bike dimensions and stack and reach dimensions.
But lets see how cramped or stretched out you ride. What is your preferred dimension for tip of saddle to handlebar centerline? Also, how much saddle setback do you prefer?...dropping a plumb line off the front of the saddle...horizontal distance to BB center?

I will give you a general bit of advice. I know a lot about bike fit. When a guy typically asks for a very specific geometry when he/she is typically under the bell curve of normal proportion and size, their fit is typically not optimal.

If you provide the above we can get you headed in the right direction.


I am all ears and looking for advice!

Yes my legs are long for my height. My arms are 'average'.

I run a stubby Tri-style saddle so I don't know if the tip-to-bars or tip-to-BB-center number will be of any use? I run a 25mm setback post with the saddle about 2/3 of the way back to get a leg geometry (KOPS-ish) that works for me. How can I take a measurement that will give you more insight?

Overall I would say my position on the bike is cramped compared to pro riders but this is partly due to excessive saddle/perineum pressure I experience when trying to stretch out lower and longer, hence the Tri saddle with massive cutout.

A tri saddle really changes the landscape in terms of providing meaningful fit advice for a road bike. I ride with hundreds of road cyclists and nobody is on one.

I would say the biggest mistake most make including the fitting I did this last weekend is average riders with too much weight on their hands believe a shorter reach will solve the problem and the opposite is true.
The issue is saddle setback and greater distance to the BB stabilizes the body and if this platform is too close to the rider's CG this puts too much weight on the hands. Of course too much setback closes the hip angle too much. Most amateurs do better with more setback and less handlebar drop to not close the hip angle too much which works better with reduced pedal forces.

You are not alone in solving the dilemma of perineal pressure. It takes a lot of trial and error with different saddles to find one that works. You need to elevate your sitbones. The only way to ride aero and generate good power on a road bike is to rotate the pelvis. You can't do this sitting on a saddle like a park bench. Plus its too hard on the lumbar of the back if you run any drop at all.
Btw, I am 6'1" with saddle height of 78mm and more average leg length. My metrics are very close to Cancellara. He rides with a 58cm top tube, more drop than you and a 130-140mm stem. Btw, I am older but ride with a 58.2mm top tube and 130mm stem and a bit less drop.
So when I say you are choosing a bike with a shorter top tube, you are likely choosing the wrong frameset. You think you want a shorter reach but you are putting a bandaid on your fit which sets you up to never get quite comfortable on the bike. A short cockpit promotes poor posture which is a slumped lumbar. Most amateurs I fit around 6' tall who aren't racers do well about 15-20mm or so shorter in reach than a pro with a bit less drop. That means a 58cm top tube or so and a 120mm stem and not too much drop. A bit longer arms and a bit longer stem. You are probably 2 inches shorter in cockpit than a pro. This is common btw. A top amateur cyclist can be fit close to a pro with similar body proportions and size if they have the flexibility but few do.

If you posted a pic of you on the bike it will be apparent. I honestly don't even have to see you on the bike because I know how you look.
Good luck. The search for a good fit can be exhaustive but it is worth it for the serious cyclist. Most stop before they get there and they make up the majority of riders on the road who settle. These guys are in the paceline always shaking their hands because of too much pressure...a common sight.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:23 pm
Posts: 187
Calnago wrote:
@Redracer: just a couple of things:
1) don't look for anything more than very broad generalizations regarding fit over the internet.
2) I am 6'1" (just shy of 185cm). I have a 91cm inseam. My saddle height is 803mm. I don't feel your leg length is abnormally long at all. My saddle to handlebar drop is 8-9cm, depending on bike. I ride a Colnago 61 Traditional. I also have a C50 traditional in 62cm. I run Deda (-8 degree) stems and 3t (-6 degree) stems. Spacers above the 15mm top cap range from 3mm (bit of red bling) on my C59 to 8mm on my EPQ to 2cm on my C50 (but the C50 has the older outboard Chris King headset. When you talk about "reach" you should really talk about it in the context of your bar height. In other words, can you get there somehow? Suppose you took a 62cm C59 and added a couple centimeters of spacers under the stem. You'd pretty much be at your preferred saddle height and drop and it would look great. As you add spacers it brings the bars back.as well. If I was looking at comparable bikes it'd be a Specialized 58 or a Trek 60. A Trek 60 in H2 geo might be just fine. I guess I think there "may" be a number of bikes that will fit you just fine so long as you go to the right person to sort things out.
3) Circle back to point 1. All you are going to get over the internet is very broad generalizations. Find someone that can see you on the bike and go from there. Good luck. And when you're comparing geometries of different bikes make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

In bold...and you would be mistaken. Finding someone to see him on the bike isn't close to a guarantee he will be properly fit. A member of my club came to me after changing his frame size 5 x's in the last 2 years because he couldn't be properly fit. His fit was way off. The key is to go to someone who really knows what they are doing and these people aren't common.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:13 am 
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Agreed. I never said that getting someone who could see him guaranteed anything. The point is, that internet fitting is probably even worse. Giving him some guidelines is fine. As long as he knows that's all he can hope to get online.

_________________
My Colnago C59
My Special Colnago EPQ


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm
Posts: 272
highdraw wrote:
You are not alone in solving the dilemma of perineal pressure. It takes a lot of trial and error with different saddles to find one that works. You need to elevate your sitbones. The only way to ride aero and generate good power on a road bike is to rotate the pelvis. You can't do this sitting on a saddle like a park bench. Plus its too hard on the lumbar of the back if you run any drop at all.
Btw, I am 6'1" with saddle height of 78mm and more average leg length. My metrics are very close to Cancellara. He rides with a 58cm top tube, more drop than you and a 130-140mm stem. Btw, I am older but ride with a 58.2mm top tube and 130mm stem and a bit less drop.
So when I say you are choosing a bike with a shorter top tube, you are likely choosing the wrong frameset. You think you want a shorter reach but you are putting a bandaid on your fit which sets you up to never get quite comfortable on the bike. A short cockpit promotes poor posture which is a slumped lumbar.


Lots of great food for thought in your post.

Can someone please explain exactly what is meant by rotating the pelvis or elevating the sit bones? I have heard this said many times but never really understood it…….yes I can admit that even after 30+ years of cycling :)

99% of my body can handle more bar drop and more reach/length but I get genital numbness very quickly when I apply downwards/forwards pressure to my groin. I have tried a dozen high-end specialty saddles and the only one that sort of works is the Tri saddle am using combined with a more hunched/crunched position to keep pressure off my groin region. It sure doesn't look very 'pro' and isn't great for aero either. I have managed to keep hand pressure to an acceptable level and can ride for 3-4hrs straight without issue. If someone can come up with a fitting solution to eliminate my numbness I will send $500 to their PayPal account today! FWIW, I have done Retul twice and another system (can't recall the name) once.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:47 am 
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Posts: 5871
Location: Drenthe, Holland
@redracer: I have this Selle SMP saddle that I'm willing to sent from Europe to you. The only thing I ask from you is that you read and learn about how to put those saddles on bikes ( they use a different angle). If it works for you you keep and and pay me the price that i ask in my add here on WW. if it doesn't, you box it up and send it back to me.

_________________
Quote:
'Tape was made to wrap your GF's gifts, NOT hold a freakin tire on.'

Quote:
a bit more detail about you - height weight etc,
I am 185cm and about 76kg. I like pina colada's and getting caught in the rain.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:23 pm
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Calnago wrote:
Agreed. I never said that getting someone who could see him guaranteed anything. The point is, that internet fitting is probably even worse. Giving him some guidelines is fine. As long as he knows that's all he can hope to get online.

And sorry you would be wrong again. Ray Charles could play the piano better than the majority of sighted people. I can fit right from the numbers and explanation of what is going on and my guess you can't or shouldn't try. Fitters are a bell curve just like bike riders are.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:20 am 
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Redracer...google John Cobb and A back and B back and youtube. His videos will come up. If you want to take your riding to the next level and get more flat backed in the drops then you have to rotate your pelvis more and ride less on the sit bones on more of the forward ramp of your pelvis which btw is narrower...pelvis ramps converge forward of the sitbones. Could also post a picture to illustrate this. If you are a man of means, you maybe even want to go visit John Cobb and/or try one or a couple of his saddles that he designed...or send him an email with pictures of you on the bike. He also espouses saddle rotation (yaw) for more perineal relief which I suggest you try to create room for your private parts.

So what is pelvis rotation you ask? It is the premise of a TT position. If you look at your position on the bike with slumped lumbar posture...it is taking your butt, back and pelvis in the side view looking from the right side of the bike and rotating it clockwise say 20 degrees. This is how you achieve a more flat lumbar when in the drops and better posture on the hoods. Your back posture on the hoods with a back angle of 45 degrees or so should be similar to your posture when you walk down the street...no slumping. Of course you say you haven't found the right saddle yet and yes, this is where many stop and settle for your position. But you will end up not being able to ride aero and have too much weight on your hands which is no good for riding a road bike as you likely know and hence your posts here. I have no affliation with John Cobb or his saddles and in fact don't ride one....I ride a Specialized Toupe...but he understands fit and his videos are informative. If you have wider sitbones than you need to support them and this is where Specialized saddles come in with their width sizing. I in fact ride a Toupe in 155mm and the cutout gives relief. Or you could try a saddle like the Romin which has more of a tail that kicks up and generally provides more perineal relief for your private area when riding in the drops and rotating your pelvis more forward.

Do I believe you may benefit from a Sportive or endurance geometry? Yes, because your legs are very long. You need a commensurate head tube height to increase the height of your handlebars. But a short top tube and/or short stem is bad for a guy who is 6'2". In particular if you struggle with rotating your pelvis to get aero, you need to ride more 'out' if you can't get more down. Keep in mind when you properly rotate your pelvis and elongate your back to increase 'effective' back length you need more reach or the bars will be way too close. In contrast a short reach promotes a slumped back because you can't accommodate a short reach with proper posture.

The other thing I would like to mention is priority. You want a very light frameset as as a priority. This is misplaced. What you really want is the best fitting frame that is as light as you can find...light being a much lower priority to a larger rider anyway. So you need to get your priorities in order if you want to improve your riding. Nothing wrong with a light wheelset or even Sram Red 22 if you want a light groupset. But get the frame that fits the best with the best handling and ride quality...not the lightest frameset that doesn't fit you perfectly.
A frame I suggest to a real long legged rider who needs a taller head tube is a Roubaix SL4. You would be on a 58. Google stack and reach. You need to increase your horizontal reach...your drop is OK...and experiment with different saddle shapes and widths to take pressure off your perineum. Try to develop a relationship with a bike shop where you can test different saddles. Or learn to sell saddles on ebay and flip used ones until you find the right one.

Or take Frankie up on his most gracious offer. You don't know until you try.
PS: I wouldn't rule out an Emonda with H2 fit which is probably the best new bike for 2014. But you do need a longer top tube and you can ride a frame size right off the shelf.


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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:20 am 


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