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 Post subject: Veloreality Lynx Trainer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Location: Outaouais
I was thinking about purchasing a trainer this winter.

Had the Tacx i-genius and Computrainer on the list.

As well the Wahoo Kickr but not so anymore since I'm not a fan of removing and putting back the rear wheel.

I prefer the real life video of Tacx over the ergvideo of Computrainer. But I prefer the Computrainer unit as it provides more accurate power readings than the Tacx unit. Plus Tacx sofware is so so... of what I read over the web.

In the last days I found the Lynx Trainer, made by Veloreality: http://veloreality.com/

It has the real life video (similar to Tacx) and it seems to work well (as Computrainer). Best of both worlds? Maybe, but they're asking 5000$.

If I read correct, the Veloreality trainer software supports the Computrainer: http://veloreality.com/products/trainer-software/

So, question, one having a Computrainer could simply install the Veloreality software and run his Computrainer with it, and thus enjoy the Veloreality videos using his Computrainer, hence achieve best of both worlds at 2000$?

Veloreality videos: http://veloreality.com/store/videos

Youtube of the Lynx Trainer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5q6aEDCj5E

Anyone owing a Computrainer here ever tryed it? or would be willing to try to see?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:36 pm 
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For what its worth, swapping the rear wheel out on my KICKR is quicker than either the kurt kinetic, or cycleops fluid trainers. And no chance of mucking up the dropouts with the clamping over the skewers. Also, no tire wear


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Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:36 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:23 pm 
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That technology needs to be integrated into a set of E motion rollers. Otherwise its just another rigid stationary reality trainer, so not worth $5000 imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Location: Toronto, Canada
uncle-gee wrote:
I prefer the real life video of Tacx over the ergvideo of Computrainer. But I prefer the Computrainer unit as it provides more accurate power readings than the Tacx unit. Plus Tacx sofware is so so... of what I read over the web.[/url]

Anyone owing a Computrainer here ever tryed it?


The software works with Computrainer and KICKR. You can download software for free. There are also 2 free demo videos of short length. This is more then enough to to check and see it it works for you. Quality of videos is currently the best on the market.

bricky21 wrote:
That technology needs to be integrated into a set of E motion rollers. Otherwise its just another rigid stationary reality trainer, so not worth $5000 imo.


It is not rigid trainer. The rear wheel rides freely on big roller and the front part is flexible. Your bike has quite a big degree of free movement on that trainer. As for e-motion rollers, try simulating 20% hill on those ans see how far does it get you. Lynx does it with ease and not just resistance but with all proper inertional effects. It has electronic flywheel that tracks your pedaling efforts with the rate of 250 times/s and provides instant and smooth response. It has huge 2HP motor capable of supplying torque in both directions. It is quietm does not require training tire and it does not wear tires either. It is the only "real" cycling simulator on the market. And it is built like a tank out of industrial components to withstand 24x7 abuse for life.

As for $5000. I will drop the question of what worth what. It is sometimes funny to hear from people who spend $500 on some jersey. But high price was due to very high cost of components since the could not afford large scale manufacturing. Now the situation has changed, the deal was reached and expect the price of a trainer to drop to around $2000 in a matter of days.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:06 am 
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Location: Canada
That sounds interesting...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:49 am 
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Watch the youtube videos and you'll see every rider excessively rocking, rolling, and pivoting on their saddle(just like on a fluid) because locked in that stand the bike can't act as it does on the road. For me the most important thing about indoor training is that the bike responds to input like it does outdoors. E motion rollers are the closest I've found so far(haven't tried trutrainer). The best way to simulate outdoor riding with available technologies is to somehow merge computrainer(or similar) with free motion rollers.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:18 am 
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I think "reality" in terms of stability etc are far less important than stimulus to sustain long periods on the erg (real video etc) and the inertia load(s) provided by the erg.

Good biker handlers don't seem to have those skills magically erased when training heavily or exclusively on the erg.

FWIW I have an old Tacx Fortius which, when it work, is ace for focussing on training at hand. The Paris-Roubaix and Tour of Flanders are my two fav routes.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:30 am 
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bricky21 wrote:
Watch the youtube videos and you'll see every rider excessively rocking, rolling, and pivoting on their saddle(just like on a fluid) because locked in that stand the bike can't act as it does on the road. For me the most important thing about indoor training is that the bike responds to input like it does outdoors. E motion rollers are the closest I've found so far(haven't tried trutrainer). The best way to simulate outdoor riding with available technologies is to somehow merge computrainer(or similar) with free motion rollers.


Sprinting cyclists do "rock excessively" but that is it. If you "rock excessively" during normal riding you must be in that different state ;). Lynx allows you to rock you bike to a reasonable degree because rear wheel rides free and the front part is flexible. I already said so but you do not seem to pay attention.

As for "reality" I am sorry but when I ride outside my body/bike combination provides for plenty of inertional effects which are completely lacking on rollers, I also do not have to concentrate each moment on not falling which is the case on rollers and I can climb hills with plenty of torque felt on y legs at low RPM which is impossible on rollers. Lynx meanwhile copes with all of that quite nicely.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:16 am 
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I'd say that if you can't ride rollers without concentrating on not falling off then you have bike riding issues that could be addressed with them :wink: Anyways all that stuff you mentioned Low rpms, huge wattage, out of saddle sprinting, long rides ect. ect. I do just fine on my rollers. Clearly you are super impressed with this thing. Perhaps you're affiliated with them somehow? I just see another computrainer, tacx reality, whatever, but more expensive. I had a Computrainer with the erg videos. The technology was cool, but in the end it was only a short lived distraction from being on a trainer.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:36 am 
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Location: Outaouais
@bricky21

Inside Ride E motion rollers + Computrainer = Real E motion rollers

http://www.realaxiom.com/en/products/real-e-motion

Unfortunately not available in north America (and they put it in bold on their website to ensure to hurt us north American readers). Maybe its a matter of outlet voltage? Maybe a converter (220v-110v) would do? Or... is north America Inside Ride E motion rollers territory only?

Anyhow, with the Real E motion rollers, max wattage seems to be in the neighborhood of 600watts and maximum slope 6 to 8%. 600watts is decent (one may not do 900watts sprints but who is going to do over 600watts for 1/2hr?, 1/4hrs?). As for the 6 to 8% maximum slope, this is the down side of it.

There is no ideal world yet but Real E motion rollers vs Lynx Trainer... does one prefer not be able to climb hills over 8% or not be able to rock his bike like crazy?... are you a climber or a sprinter?


@kostya416

Seems like it would be somehow easy to alterate the fork clamp of the Lynx Trainer so that it could pivot side to side...?

2000$, yeah, much better :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:26 am 
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I am a sprinter not a climber. I would never consider serious sprint training, or climbing for that matter indoors anyway.

How exactly could someone properly simulate a 20% climb indoors while their bike is sitting level locked in a trainer? That has always been lost on me.

I think those Real E motion rollers are using the Tacx technology. I'm guessing that the limitation of power/gradient is because they decided that further developing their product for rollers was going to be too costly :noidea:

Lynx is a product which functions much like rollers at the rear, so I wonder what would stop the same technology from working on a proper set of rollers. The risk of riding off the front during sudden changes in power could be easily handled the same way that your kept from doing it on E-Motions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:45 pm 
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uncle-gee wrote:
Anyhow, with the Real E motion rollers, max wattage seems to be in the neighborhood of 600watts and maximum slope 6 to 8%. 600watts is decent (one may not do 900watts sprints but who is going to do over 600watts for 1/2hr?, 1/4hrs?). As for the 6 to 8% maximum slope, this is the down side of it.


You are not going to get your 6-8% with this unit. It is simple magnetic resistance and no simulation of inertia at all. At best you will get that square pedaling feeling. Going uphill with no inertia is ugly.

uncle-gee wrote:
There is no ideal world yet but Real E motion rollers vs Lynx Trainer... does one prefer not be able to climb hills over 8% or not be able to rock his bike like crazy?... are you a climber or a sprinter?


I am an average Joe Schmoe with 250W FTP give or take who likes to ride bike. When on trainer I have music blasting (huge playlist put on random). So it goes like this: one song can put me in crazy sprint and another .. I just much pedals.

uncle-gee wrote:
@kostya416
Seems like it would be somehow easy to alterate the fork clamp of the Lynx Trainer so that it could pivot side to side...?
2000$, yeah, much better :D


Yes it is easy. But the fork stand already flexible enough to provide decent rocking. It is not "crazy rocking" but yes if you wish to do so you can modify it easily.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:47 pm 
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bricky21 wrote:
Lynx is a product which functions much like rollers at the rear, so I wonder what would stop the same technology from working on a proper set of rollers. The risk of riding off the front during sudden changes in power could be easily handled the same way that your kept from doing it on E-Motions.


Well, you are free to try ;) The world is full of opportunities.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:28 pm 
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uncle-gee wrote:
since I'm not a fan of removing and putting back the rear wheel.
Long/hard sessions on a turbo are a damn fine way to destroy your nice road tyres. And leave a nice stripe of part melted rubber blobs up the wall/across the floor. And a nice, grip free stripe around the middle of your tyre.

If you are running expensive tyres, the cost of a bottom of the range/second hand/worn out rear wheel, turbo tyre and basic cassette will probably pay for itself in a season. And will still be going strong 5 years later.


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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:28 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
bricky21 wrote:
How exactly could someone properly simulate a 20% climb indoors while their bike is sitting level locked in a trainer? That has always been lost on me.
Agreed. Claims of 6 to 8% grade on Real E motion rollers, not to mention climbing on Lynx Trainer, are BS. The maximum grade is approximately zero% !!!!

I think that Elite, the Real E motion rollers manufacturer, has or had an arrangement with Inside Ride to distribute emotion products in some geographical territory (maybe all of Europe, or everywhere except for North America?). But in doing so, Elite actually had its own version of emotion rollers which was different than that sold by Inside Ride in North America. Real E motion rollers appears to be a further effort in that direction, being a product which builds on the emotion technology, but is rather different. I suspect that agreement on geographical purview, and not difference in voltage standards, explains its unavailability in North America.

That said, Inside Ride produced a small number (at least one, anyhow) of something called the "Super Trainer" Cyclingnews Tech News article from 2004 which includes write up on and pictures of the Super Trainer and http://www.operationgadget.com/2005/03/inside_ride_sup.html, which used to be shown on its website, and was basically a giant adjustable incline treadmill for riding your bike. That was real climbing. A couple of years back, I inquired with Inside Ride about the availability of the Super Trainer, and was told that it was not being produced or available, but that they were considering making a home unit which would have adjustable inclination, though about the same size as, or not much bigger than, emotion rollers, and at a similar or slightly higher price to emotion rollers. Late Friday, I sent an inquiry to Inside Ride asking for an update on status and plans in this regard. I hope that Inside Ride doesn't just produce something similar to Real E Motion and call that adjustable inclination. I made quite clear in my communications with Inside Ride my desire for actual inclination, and how that is different than high resistance at zero inclination. From my experience with a Nordic Track Pro (20 year old model before bankruptcy and cheapening of the brand and products) which has adjustable inclination, it really does simulate climbing, and I am hoping for similar with bicycle rollers, or even more so, a bicycle treadmill. But my hopes aren't very high. And unlike the Nordic Track Pro which requires you to get off the machine to change the inclination (although I think there was eventually a "professional gym" unit which did have adjustable inclination not requiring you to get off the machine), I am hoping, and expecting, that if a true adjustable inclination machine is produced, inclination can be changed by remote control.
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I don't see why, other than need for high price, limited market size, and potential liability issues, someone could not produce something similar to an adjustable inclination running treadmill, but bigger, heavier dutier, and able to handle (much) higher speeds of cycling, with appropriate safety safeguards. I think that perhaps describes the Super Trainer, but perhaps it need not be that large or heavy.

It's current asking price means you're going to have to be Lance Armstrong (or maybe Robin Williams) to consider buying a Super trainer (and getting a 900lb device into your home is going to be interesting too) but prototypes are always spendy - how long till a home version costs $1,000?
Answer: At least 10 years, maybe infinity until a home unit is even available, never mind the price.

kostya416 wrote:
It <Lynx Trainer> is not rigid trainer. The rear wheel rides freely on big roller and the front part is flexible. Your bike has quite a big degree of free movement on that trainer. As for e-motion rollers, try simulating 20% hill on those ans see how far does it get you. Lynx does it with ease and not just resistance but with all proper inertional effects. It has electronic flywheel that tracks your pedaling efforts with the rate of 250 times/s and provides instant and smooth response. It has huge 2HP motor capable of supplying torque in both directions. It is quietm does not require training tire and it does not wear tires either. It is the only "real" cycling simulator on the market. And it is built like a tank out of industrial components to withstand 24x7 abuse for life.
I disagree with kostya416 on this. Climbing is not just about resistance and inertia, climbing brings different muscles into play. Angle matters!! The Lynx Trainer looks like just another expensive video game. Provide an actual mechanism to allow climbing, and forget the video game cr@p.


Last edited by HammerTime2 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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