California Mountain Roads Using Chip Seal

[WMW]

It isn't just CA. They are chipsealing a lot where I live in NM... more this year than ever. They just did the entire ski road climb with the gnarly course stuff. Based on my experience with other roads they've done that to, it will absolutely suck for 2+ years... and then they will do it again.

It's economically stupid also. It just shifts the cost from road construction to tires and gas, because the rough surface wears out tires and increases rolling resistance.

[kbbpll]

@Butcher has a valid point and can be argued separately, regarding whether bicycles should pay road taxes and how to determine that share. CerveloBert gets close to my opinion of the situation in CO, at least Larimer County, when he says "Do you re-pave a road that does not need it in the first place and cause a lot of commotion from recreational users?" Every road they chipsealed this year around here did not need it. They could have spent twice as much on half the roads. One gets the feeling they just go out and spray money over as wide an area as possible in an attempt to show that they are doing something for everybody.

I saw a bumper sticker in Routt County a few years ago - "Stop the Chip & Seal Insanity".

[WMW]

Every road they chipsealed this year around here did not need it.

Two years ago they repaved the main highway... beautiful smooth tarmac. It was still in pristine condition... this summer when they chipsealed over the top of it. I asked the guy holding the stop sign why? and he said it was to preserve the surface. Some craziness there. At least they didn't do the shoulder, but it *is* covered with gravel and dirt.

[kbbpll]

WMW, it's only "economically stupid" to the taxpayer. Reduced gas mileage means more road money, through taxes on gasoline, and more sales tax when you buy tires or replace your windshield. I wonder if there are any studies on the mpg impact, because the change in rolling resistance is noticeable even in a car. Sorry for posting so much on this thread, but it's really a pet peeve for me.

[CerveloBert]

How many tax dollars from gasoline sales can you get from a road that has less than 1,000 daily users, opposed to a section of 405 freeway near west LA that sees over 330,000 drivers daily. I don't think the intent is as subversive as you suggest, rather it is an oversight of priorities and responsibilities of companies like CalTrans.

Note - this is the same company that fear-mongered the entire "carmageddon" debacle when initiating the breaking of ground of the Sepulveda Pass project. There was even a group of cyclists that said they would get from LAX to Burbank Airport faster than it would take for a person to check in, fly to burbank from LAX, claim baggage, and get a taxi. - http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tha ... ss-l-a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit: removed quote per forum rules =)

[Guerdi]

Roads over here in North western Switzerland / eastern France get the exact same traitment. It is supposed to be cheaper for the governement to maintain roads in an acceptable condition for a longer period of time.

[WMW]

I wonder if there are any studies on the mpg impact, because the change in rolling resistance is noticeable even in a car.

It's huge. Cummins did a test with big trucks.

Relative Rolling Road Surface Resistance %

Concrete polished (best mpg) –12%
Asphalt with finish coat 1%
medium coarse finish 4%
coarse aggregate 8%
Chip and Seal Blacktop (worst mpg) 33%

If I recall correctly, if you are traveling at highway speeds in a car, rolling resistance is typically ~30% of your total drag. So figure ~10% reduction of MPG in your car.

I read somewhere that chipseal was never used on roads with >10,000 cars/day but now they have determined that it is viable for up to 30,000/day... hence the expansion of its use.

Regarding the "cyclists don't pay taxes" mantra, the total fuel tax is ~$0.50/gal. For someone driving 10k miles/yr and getting 25 mpg they are paying $200/yr in taxes. I'd gladly pay that if it would mean that I can ride on smooth pavement and a shoulder that gets swept once a year...

[kbbpll]

Thanks WMW, that's food for thought. Works out to about $2.50 in extra gas tax revenue per 1000 vehicle miles on chip seal versus asphalt. It's not huge, but not trivial either. If in my county we average 2000 vehicle miles per day on the roughly 100 miles of chip seal they did this summer, over 5 years that's almost a million dollars in additional gas tax revenue. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, and I'd have to research what the actual costs are versus asphalt. I just think it's a pathetic surface for both cars and bikes.

On the bike tax issue, your sample 10k miles/yr 25 mpg $200/yr driver in a 4000 pound vehicle is paying $.000005 per pound-mile. Correct me if I'm wrong, but road wear is directly related to weight and should be taxed as such. Therefore a 200 pound bike/rider combo riding those same 10k miles per year (a true velominati) should pay $10. And this would be additional incentive to lose weight! (WW theme incorporated here... ) Like you, I'd gladly pay $200 if they'd sweep the shoulder just one damn time after they chip seal.

[CarlosFerreiro]

Chip seal (surface dressing) costs roughly 1/10 as much as a laying a new asphalt wearing surface
Here at least it is used to prevent water soaking through a cracked surface, or to increase surface texture where scanning shows it is not up to spec.

Road wear is proportional to something closer to the 4th power of axle load.
That's a big power, "damage" ends up like - 1 large truck = 10,000 cars, 1 car = 10,000 bikes

[mattr]

Chip seal (surface dressing) costs roughly 1/10 as much as a laying a new asphalt wearing surface

Not to mention it appears to be about 1/20th as durable, and is pretty poor for almost its entire lifespan.

It gets good (passably ok) once its bedded in and the loose stuff has been pushed off the road surface/washed away, then after the first proper bit of weather (either too hot, or too cold) it starts to disintegrate.
At least in the UK.

[CarlosFerreiro]

Given the budgets engineers would not chose to use it much. You can get much better long term benefits from a proper overlay design (resurfacing in bitmac/asphalt).
Given budgeting that does not take account of an appropriate long term spending profile related to actual asset management, you end up patching things together as best you can
It's worse with bridges.

[colinmack]

What they do where I live in West Sussex is to just throw the stuff over the existing road surface without filling in any of the numerous potholes that litter the roads around here. So then you have what looks a fairly even surface only to find deep craters hidden with loose gravel, which does catch you out a bit. Thanks a lot Highways Agency / West Sussex Council.

[WMW]

Therefore a 200 pound bike/rider combo riding those same 10k miles per year (a true velominati) should pay $10.

Around here there is a rightwing bike hate mantra of "you don't pay taxes to use the road!" Just wondered how much these fools were actually paying... and it ain't a lot. We may not wear the road at all, but we are "in the way" more than most road users.

[stella-azzurra]

Come on over to the north east.
I'll show you some nice potholes.
What kills an asphalt road is the freezing and thaw that occurs over time.
Regions with moderate temps do not have to spend as much for road repairs.

http://thecaseforcycling.com/index.php? ... r_Roads%3F

[FIJIGabe]

Gentlemen, welcome to the Great State of Texas! They chip-sealed almost every road we ride on down here in S. Texas. It was so bad that we contacted TxDOT, who told us that the reason the rough grade stuff was used (and not finish rolled, as normal) was that it would save about 20% of the cost, and last about as long as the stuff they used to use. Some of the roads that were covered weren't in the best of shape, but even the cracks in the road surface that were there are still there, and have reappeared on the new surface (except now they're harder to see, since it's a dark crack on dark surface).

Needless to say, we have found new routes to ride on, until those get resurfaced next year. This is the primary reason I switched back to tubeless tires, and I'll probably go with a Domane next year.