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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Moderation is strong here. Which is sad.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:39 pm 
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I assume you're referring to the Bernard kit?

The end looks very similar, it's true. Knock off? If you want to call it that, I don't have a choice. I'm actually surprised they're so similar because I had never seen it until trychle posted a link to it, but whatever - Romeo & Juliet's storyline wasn't original either, but no one is going around claiming Shakespeare copied Persian folklore, nor are the Persians claiming they invented the story (even though there's the ongoing joke that Persians invented everything).

I actually sketched up this concept two years ago for another team (I can scan in the notebook pages if you'd like for proof), but it was never used. The idea was pretty much as it was back then: three colors, offset balance, asymmetrical and two slash stripes in parallel (in a previous life this is where the other team's web address was, only enlarging the slashes). The colors were different from what is being used on the WW kit, they were red white & blue for that team. I guess you can call it irony because that team ended up "designing" a complete knockoff of the Leopard Trek jersey which was popular at the time, tops/bottoms/everything... and wait, wasn't the Leopard Trek jersey a knockoff of another jersey? Wasn't that jersey a knockoff of another jersey before it, too?

What's different from the Bernard kit that doesn't make it a knockoff?
-Strategies of text/logo placement.
-Colors.
-Bottoms are different.
-We don't have a hat. Bernard does.

One thing that had to be similar is the arm warmers: since the arms were different on both Bernard kit and WW kit, arm warmers also had to follow... but again, text/logo placement is different.

Apparently the Bernard kit was designed off of an homage to older designs of some sort? This WW design isn't. The original sketch was based on a blown up pattern from some runway posting I saw via the Sartorialist or some other fashion blog I follow years ago. Yes, I like fashion, and my RSS reader has more graphic design & fashion feeds than cycling ones. It's what I'm into. Color blocks and cropped patterns are nothing new, we've been seeing this for decades now.

Did I know about the Bernard kit? No, not until it was brought to my attention by trychle. I don't go around shopping for kits so I'm not paying attention to 'what's out there' beyond what's in the news or out there on the roads. I'm not on Facebook (I left at New Year's 2012), so I wouldn't have seen any links about it if you think it would have been sent to me.

As for why that link was removed: the voting was still happening at the time, and it's been re-linked here.

Again, I can scan in the notebook if you'd like, I have no problem with that. I keep all of my sketchbooks for documentation.

Anything else?

So if you want to call it a 'riff' and claim that the Bernard kit came first, sure, whatever, I really don't care. I know that truthfully that isn't the case, that I did design this on my own without influence from another kit, and I'm fine with that. Calling it a knockoff is a bit interesting though, because you're then saying that they are exactly the same... much like a knockoff Hermes bag can be bought from China and attempts to look the same as the original. This is not the case here.

Question is, who came first? My sketches or their order? And if it really was a knockoff why didn't I do exactly what they did everywhere on the kit? Why didn't I use the same colors? Why isn't the bottom the same? The vest? The striping? Everything else?

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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:39 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Quick follow up: Eurperg you made me pull out my sketchbook, and the original sketch is slightly different from the end result. What made the change? Paneling on a raglan jersey. The original sketch had left/right arm color blocks breaching across panels, which would have made for an alignment nightmare on the factory floor, so it gets simplified. Apparently constraints of build forced the WW kit and Bernard kit to look similar. If the jersey used set-in sleeves I may have been able to keep the original sketch absolutely true, but not many manufacturers do set-in sleeves anymore.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:00 pm 
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I'm a big raglan fan. I feel it's always a mistake to design raglan sleeves as if they were set sleeves. Part of that is due to the way the cut scales with size. But a more important reason, I feel, is the raglan orientation just looks better in the cycling position.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the Bernard jersey. Using other jerseys for inspiration is common practice.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:15 pm 
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I'm just excited to see the new detailed Jakroo sizing and to have the store open up. I'm quite happy with his latest iteration of the design. To the point that my previous thoughts on a jersey buy will probably morph into a skinsuit if the sizing works for me.

Sure I have little things I would adjust on the kit, because I'm a designer and have strong opinions! :) But I'm thrilled someone else has stood up to take on the project, which is certainly not something I could allocate time to do these days.

One question though, if I recall the original design was quoted to have the colors being kind of fluorescent, at least to the extent of bring more lively or brighter than it appears on screen.
Is that still a target? I'm pretty cool with either really, but brighter is often better ;)

Anyway, thanks for the design, and update us as to when to expect the Jakroo store opening up.
-Cory


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:56 am 
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my humble two cents if i may

as far as i remember, there was time to comment on the submitted designs (via the survey) and/or propose one's own. commenting on how this kit's a knock off seems pretty silly given the opportunity every member of WW was given to influence the final outcome. a month ago, not now, when the whole thing's about to launch. also, bear in mind his whole project has been carried out pro bono so you could enjoy your fav forum cycling kit 8) . it's been done for You :thumbup: <#unclesamposter>

one more thing - persians invented inventing :idea:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:30 pm 
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It's true, they did! :lol:

@gt5504b Good memory, and the colors will hopefully be a brighter blue and green than what is on those renderings. While I did spec pantone colors (2925 for the blue and 376 for the green) I wanted to be sure that the actual prints on fabric are accurate, so I've requested a print sample to be sent to me. It will allow me to see what the colors actually look like on the actual fabric before everything goes into manufacturing mode, and I can make any color adjustments from there. This should arrive to me in about 6-8 days, which will be in the middle of the store being open... which will be open as soon as I get that link from the Jakroo rep... Which is what I'm waiting for now.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:11 am 
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The Bernard kit is older than your 2 year old sketchbook. This is not a fixed gear, stop your <i>backpedaling</i>. You knocked off the design.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:12 am 
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A rather rash accusation for your 12th post.....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:04 am 
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+1

When I was a teenager I thought it would be really cool if the headlights turned in synch with car so that the road was lit up in the direction you needed to look, rather than the direction in which you were travelling. I also thought it would be cool if the radio volume increased as the car sped up, to make up for the resulting increase in cabin noise. Last year I thought it would be cool if I could detach the screen from my MacBook and have it turn instantly into an iPad.

Any of this stuff sound familiar? Yeah, other people thought of it too. Did they rip me off? Steal my ideas? No. My point is nobody has cornered the market on good ideas. It is not unusual for similar ideas to develop in complete isolation from each other.

Chill.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:11 am 
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OK, you're right. By changing the colors and the name/logo means it's completely different. I guess I should not even bother to mention that the color change happens to perfectly mimic the color palette of another, well-known Los Angeles based cyclist's kit.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:27 am 
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Really. Wow. This is really ridiculous. Now I need to break out the scanner and upload the sketch from 2 years ago just to prove my point.

Ummm... Hey JAWN, this is the first I've ever heard or seen your so-called "well known" LA based kit. You do realize that "LA" is really large, right? You do realize that we may not even ride in the same areas, right? You do realize that I work for your ability to ride throughout the entire county, right? Wait, you don't realize that without advocacy you wouldn't even be able to ride on the streets of your neighborhood and it takes a hell of a lot of work to keep an organization functional? No, of course not, because according to you whatever is in your personal world IS the world, right? It's a bit sad that I work my ass off for every type of cyclist in LA County and we have groups the reflect your mindset: "my world is the only world."

You know another one that is well known? Oh, LACBC's. That's right... Guess where the blue and green come from, hmmm? They also have green and blue, And how old is your kit, eh? LACBC has been around for 15 years, kid. Endo, your supplier, isn't even that old. How well known is the LACBC? Well known enough to get invited to every meeting regarding cycling in the City of LA and at the County level. So well known that Helen's, the largest local chain in LA County, carries our kit on the store floor.

But wait, JAWN, I guess you invented color palettes too?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:08 am 
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Actually, I'm so really pissed off about this right now I just took phone pics of this damn notebook. It's really ridiculous that people are going out of their way to harass me about this. Really, don't you have something better to do?

Here are pictures, including the date notation in the front of the book which is exactly what I do with all of the notebooks I've ever used & archived.
So what do you see? Exactly what I wrote earlier is in the sketch:
-Red white and Blue for... yes, JAWN, Velo Club La Grange... you know, the well known LA club? Certainly more well known than your kit.
-Panel pattern is very similar to what ended up with the WW kit, but this design was never used because of what's happening on the right shoulder: I intentionally offeset it, but with raglan this isn't possible, so it gets adjusted... suddenly it's looking a lot like Bernard.
-Slashes are used for... yep, the La Grange logo becoming web address.
-Slashes on the pockets used for web address, bringing sponsors up to back panel so they can be seen if a number is pinned onto the pocket.
Same concept, different color pallet.

Image
Image
Image

But wait, by your reasoning, Velo Club La Grange stole their colors from that other well known entity... the United States? Or did they take their colors from Great Britain? What about France?

Wait, wait... JAWN, it just dawned on me: SFBC stole the colors from the San Francisco Giants. Those jerks! Oh, damn! The SF Giants stole their colors from Australia's Northern Territory?

Mellojohnny put it best. Do you really think that every idea in the world is absolutely original and there's absolutely no chance that someone else, somewhere in the world did something very similar? Do you really think that just because you saw something and all your "friends" saw it too on the same website you visit, that every one else in the world also saw the exact same thing? Really? Who are you kidding? How selfish are you?

You wanna do some real backpedaling now and apologize for being single-minded?

Side note: I never would have ever imagined that designing a cycling kit would end up with so much backlash from people who are probably guilty of the very thing they are accusing me of in some other context. Sh*t like this is the very reason I left Facebook, there's too many people with too much time on their hands getting aggressive about sh*t when they would be better off spending that time actually helping humanity/the planet/others. !@$#!^$@~!^$%!!!

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:26 am 
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JAWN wrote:
OK, you're right. By changing the colors and the name/logo means it's completely different. I guess I should not even bother to mention that the color change happens to perfectly mimic the color palette of another, well-known Los Angeles based cyclist's kit.

This is seriously ridiculous dude. There have been thousands of different kits designed over the decades cycling has been around. If you think a pro-bono job is going to be so creative that it looks completely unique from any other idea and remain appealing, you're out of your mind. Prend has busted his ass for us and you're just being a self-entitled prick over it. I'm all for freedom of speech but I hope the mods kick/warn you for this toxic behavior.

The reason nobody takes you seriously right now is because your argument is like saying that any suit that's black and striped is a ripoff of [some brand]. It's a ridiculous argument and even if it was reasonable nobody cares because in the end it is pointless to whine about.

Another analogy for you...any music with a guitar, bass and drums is the exact same...that's how ignorant you sound when you claim rights to specific color pallets.

Either buy a kit or don't. There's nothing to accomplish here by whining other than isolating yourself from the community.

Grow up or go away please.


@Prend
You're awesome. You have nothing to prove to us. Keep up the good work and just ignore this troll.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 am 
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@Prend
You're awesome. You have nothing to prove to us. Keep up the good work and just ignore this troll.


+1!!

Didn't we go through this? I f you don't like the clothes, then shut up. :shock: :oops: :twisted:

I live in Sweden so the chances of seeing anybody from that "famous LA bikeclub" is not a big deal.

Troll.

I really appreciate your work Prend.


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Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 am 


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