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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:40 pm 
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Liggero wrote:
[

To each their own. But some people here seem to be biased, or lacking knowledge or out of topic.


No. Some people just have a different opinion to yours. It would seem from your history that this presents a problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Leviathan wrote:
There is a definition of insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result" :roll:


Actually, that's just a quote - not a definition :P


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Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:49 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Liggero wrote:
Back to topic: I don't have lot of expertise in the 3 brands, but I´m not so biased as I don't care which one is better. There are only 3, and each has its good and bad points. I think there is not, "the best", at least not today, not as a full groupset. Sram has the best front shifting now. Very recently they were the worst. Shimano has the best electronic group by far. Campy is lighter than shimano, the best looking perhaps, although too classic. Sram offers BB30, although there are 3rd party cranks which are better than these three, just like it happens with wheels and brakes.

To each their own. But some people here seem to be biased, or lacking knowledge or out of topic.

Biased or lacking knowledge? Not really, I deal with Campagnolo, Shimano & Sram on a daily basis. I see their warranty rates firsthand, again day in day out. I have owned all three manufacturers' kit in the last 5 years and regularly ride the latest products as part of my job.

All three produce good stuff, but opinions on whose shifts better are purely subjective. It depends on who set up the bike in the first place too. I've worked with mechanics who can set up Campag & Shimano with their eyes shut, yet they find Sram awkward. Conversely, I know people who find things the other way round.

Sram are by necessity followers in many respects. They had to wait for Shimano to go to 11 speed so they could marry their 11 speed set up to Shimano.

From a warranty point of view, Sram & Shimano trail Campagnolo in my experience. Equally when it comes to serviceability, Campagnolo is streets ahead in its price and ease of repair. If you compare the cost of repairing a Shimano STI with that of an Ergopower it's evident that Shimano aren't in the business of serviceable componentry. Sram aren't as bad, but it is hard to find the correct parts in the UK as the distributor's website is steam powered! Campagnolo is easy in comparison. Part numbers are simple to find, and parts are readily accessible, even for models several years old.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:41 pm 
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I've been riding all three extensively and really hated SRAM in the beginning coming from Shimano and Campa. 2 years later I'm a firm believer in SRAM due to double tap, still like Shimano and find the Campa thumb shifting increasingly awkward. Say: All three produce decent components imho and it's really up to personal preference and correct setup.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:50 pm 
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ultimobici wrote:
Liggero wrote:
Back to topic: I don't have lot of expertise in the 3 brands, but I´m not so biased as I don't care which one is better. There are only 3, and each has its good and bad points. I think there is not, "the best", at least not today, not as a full groupset. Sram has the best front shifting now. Very recently they were the worst. Shimano has the best electronic group by far. Campy is lighter than shimano, the best looking perhaps, although too classic. Sram offers BB30, although there are 3rd party cranks which are better than these three, just like it happens with wheels and brakes.

To each their own. But some people here seem to be biased, or lacking knowledge or out of topic.

Biased or lacking knowledge? Not really, I deal with Campagnolo, Shimano & Sram on a daily basis. I see their warranty rates firsthand, again day in day out. I have owned all three manufacturers' kit in the last 5 years and regularly ride the latest products as part of my job.

All three produce good stuff, but opinions on whose shifts better are purely subjective. It depends on who set up the bike in the first place too. I've worked with mechanics who can set up Campag & Shimano with their eyes shut, yet they find Sram awkward. Conversely, I know people who find things the other way round.

Sram are by necessity followers in many respects. They had to wait for Shimano to go to 11 speed so they could marry their 11 speed set up to Shimano.

From a warranty point of view, Sram & Shimano trail Campagnolo in my experience. Equally when it comes to serviceability, Campagnolo is streets ahead in its price and ease of repair. If you compare the cost of repairing a Shimano STI with that of an Ergopower it's evident that Shimano aren't in the business of serviceable componentry. Sram aren't as bad, but it is hard to find the correct parts in the UK as the distributor's website is steam powered! Campagnolo is easy in comparison. Part numbers are simple to find, and parts are readily accessible, even for models several years old.


good for you

It depends on each rider of course. But I´ve never ever broke a shimano part or sram, specially not during the warranty period, so that data in my case doesn't matter, same with reparability. Sram shifters are definitely weaker in this sense, but for a normal user, it makes no difference. weight and price makes a diference from first moment, same as front trimming. EPS is just worse from day one, also in price. And that is why it doesn't sell. Campy is definitely exclusive in price. And getting a campy wheel is more complicated that getting a shimano wheel. Also in races. Same thing happens with pedals in amateur races, talking bout second bike or car bikes.

Being a follower is the only way to use the same standards, and no new ones. Shimano can create a new standard for BB tomorrow if they want, sram just can't. Campy could, and it would be their death. No frame manufacturer would follow. Again, not the bees knees, they are ducati, for the good and for the bad.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:09 am 
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Liggero wrote:
It depends on each rider of course. But I´ve never ever broke a shimano part or sram, specially not during the warranty period, so that data in my case doesn't matter, same with reparability. Sram shifters are definitely weaker in this sense, but for a normal user, it makes no difference. weight and price makes a diference from first moment, same as front trimming. EPS is just worse from day one, also in price. And that is why it doesn't sell. Campy is definitely exclusive in price. And getting a campy wheel is more complicated that getting a shimano wheel. Also in races. Same thing happens with pedals in amateur races, talking bout second bike or car bikes.
EPS doesn't sell? News to me sunshine! What do you base your assumption on? Have you used EPS? Hell have you even seen it in the flesh?
Also if you have issues getting Campagnolo compatible wheels, you aren't looking too hard. Fulcrum, Campag, DT etc are all compatible with Campag with very little issue at all. But here's the funny bit, they ALL are compatible with SHimano too! Unlike Shimano's stuff that is only compatible with Shimano and God help you if you bought a wheel in 2012 and you want to use it for more than a few months. How dumb is that?

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Being a follower is the only way to use the same standards, and no new ones. Shimano can create a new standard for BB tomorrow if they want, sram just can't. Campy could, and it would be their death. No frame manufacturer would follow. Again, not the bees knees, they are ducati, for the good and for the bad.
Campagnolo made their own cassette body in 1997 for 9 speed and have stuck with it ever since. For this reason my Record Ti hubs are still in use despite me now running 11 speed. When I get round to sending the rear wheel off to Campagnolo's service centre they'll have brand new bearing races fitted so they are as smooth as they were 16 years ago. I used to use a pair of Dura Ace 7403 hubs with 10 speed Sram but the 11-up cassette necessitated a washer behind it which made for a tight fit between the frame & top gear. No issue with any of my Campag hubbed wheels. Funny eh?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:03 am 
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DI2 sells 4x or 5 times more than EPS, at least. I don't see it on the road, don't see it in shops, and I don't see it on the internet.

About wheels, I was talking more like, asking your neighbour, or a ride mate or a fellow club member. Remember Sram and shimano are 2 and they sell more than campy. Just check how many brands stock campy in their bikes.

Again, if you don't want to see, you won't...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:43 pm 
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4-5 times, where do you get that figure? 2 or 3 to 1 I'll give you based on what I invoice. As for service wheels, a 10 speed system will work ok either way round. Again this is based on experience. As for 11 speed I haven't tried to use a Shimano wheel in my Campagnolo set-up, so can't say for sure how it behaves.

It's not that I don't want to see, rather I see a shed-load more to base my opinion on. Sales, warranty & spares availability all go to support Campagnolo being not only desired but a practical & cost efficient option. Veloce is far better a choice than 105, being cheaper, lighter & more durable. Athena carbon with Chorus levers makes for a similar situation compared to Ultegra.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Well, I was doing intervals on a new(er) course that includes a really bumpy descent with two steep sections having corners right at the bottom of those sections. You really need to get on the brakes to make it around. I was riding EPS for the first time on the new course and was immediately struck by the superiority of the Campagnolo brakes. Big difference.

I think that the Dura-Ace caliper is much stiffer than e Campagnolo caliper, but the Campagnolo lever feel is more solid. The overall modulation of the Campagnolo brakes as a system is superior, to me.

One thing I noted is that, being used to Di2, I sometimes 'hang' on to a shift a bit too long and that results in the Campagnolo system shifting to a lower gear than I intended. I also catch myself missing front shifts at the start of the interval climb by forgetting about the thumb button. Switching between the two systems is a bit of a pain...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Simple. Sell the Shimano!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Geoff wrote:
Switching between the two systems is a bit of a pain...

I'm between all systems nowadays. Won't lie, my thumb will move to shift once or twice if latest test bike has Campag (or I've been on one of my own steeds, which are all Campag).

But pain? Really?


I hear you on the brakes though. DA brakes (Red too) could pull up an A380. I miss the modulation of Campag. But again I think that's a 'what you're used to' sort of thing. You don't know Shimano/SRAM brakes don't modulate as well as Campag if you've not used them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:23 pm 
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All 3 manufacturers make good brakes but it comes down to the set up of the brake and the type of brake pad matched to the type of rim being used.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:35 pm 
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I'm baffled when people complain about the shift button locations. As humans we can learn tactile patterns with ease. By most standards I have tiny hands for my size. I'm 1.86 and wear a size M glove at best. I was really worried about Campag thumb shifting from the drops, but it simply hasn't been an issue. In the past week I rode bikes with all 3 groups and it took about 5 shifts on either side to remember what I was on.

In the US Sram is a lot more plentiful than all but probably 105 at this point. In the while that I worked at a shop I never touched a single Campag bike. They never came in for repair and when they did it was something minor, such as a chain/cable replacement. Meanwhile, I remember stacks of broken Sram levers sitting there on shelves missing hift paddles or having strange issues that Sram decided to warranty instead of instruct us how to fix. Shimano was in the middle somewhere. My point is that the rate of repair and service depends entirely on where you are located. A few years ago Shimano had a bad run of Ultegra 10 speed chains that weren't heat treated correctly and had links that would crack. I somehow got 3 of these chains because most of them went to the same distributor from whom I ordered. Rather than let this cloud my perception I realized the issue and have gladly bought tons of Shimano chains since and prefer them to almost anything else.

From a swapping standpoint it was really easy to switch my wheels, which have a DT Swiss freehub body, to Campag. I like the Campag freehub better as well as cassette splines to not get dented as easily.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:48 pm 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
All 3 manufacturers make good brakes

No one is saying any of them are 'bad'...

[url]I like the Campag freehub better as well as cassette splines to not get dented as easily.[/url]
An underrated feature, I agree.

In the archives here there's a thread where ultimobici (iirc) gives a run-down of the history behind the spine choice -and where Shimano had the opportunity to join Campag and make them universal, but chose otherwise.

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Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:48 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:25 pm 
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ultimobici wrote:
4-5 times, where do you get that figure? 2 or 3 to 1 I'll give you based on what I invoice. As for service wheels, a 10 speed system will work ok either way round. Again this is based on experience. As for 11 speed I haven't tried to use a Shimano wheel in my Campagnolo set-up, so can't say for sure how it behaves.

It's not that I don't want to see, rather I see a shed-load more to base my opinion on. Sales, warranty & spares availability all go to support Campagnolo being not only desired but a practical & cost efficient option. Veloce is far better a choice than 105, being cheaper, lighter & more durable. Athena carbon with Chorus levers makes for a similar situation compared to Ultegra.


Campy veloce is not cheaper than 105, not at all. 105 is the best selling groupset ever in the world. There may be doubts about what is the best top groupset, but Veloce... Hope Veloce don't have those pure black plastic levers anymore. 105 is by far the cheapest, and if I want to upgrade it, I would look at sram, which is more expensive but lighter. Looking forward to have yaw in sram lower groupsets soon.

Glad to know you sell lot of campy. There is a shop in my city that sells only campy, so I guess according to their data, campy is sold around 10-20 times more than shimano or sram. But that is just a shop, not worldwide sales. Same happens with your case. That is why shimano is the best in quality/price, cause the sell so many units, they can improve production and reduce price. Just think about hollow aluminium cranksets even in lower groups. No other company can offer that.

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