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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:51 am 
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HUMP DIESEL wrote:
Do we also feel that cyclist are trying to ride smaller frames and that has led to this shoulder shrugging always in pain scenario?

What is CONI?

HUMP


CONI is the Italian national Olympic committee. They produced the CONI manual in the late 70s with the help of top Italian coaches and legendary builders like Cinelli. The manual was long known as cycling's "bible." Most of the training info. contained within is outdated, but the chapters on fit are an excellent guide, because frame geometry has hardly changed at all. They provide charts for working out frame size and stem length, etc. There is also extensive info. on bike design and geometry, and good explanations of why a bike needs to be built to certain parameters.

The fit advice regarding saddle height and setback is more conservative than the Huggi/Genzling-inspired methods, and it does not rely heavily on formulas. As mentioned in the last post, sizing the frame down by 1-2 centimeters would be required for a modern bike with integrated shifters/brakes, since modern hoods often sit higher. The saddle will usually end up being about 16-18 cm above the top tube for a med.-sized frame. Dave Moulton's fit advice also aligns very closely with what CONI recommends.


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:51 am 


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Location: South Carolina
djconnel wrote:
To me there's two types of fitting guidelines: functional and dogmatic. If you look at Steve Hogg's recommendations, they're almost all functional. The fit is based on things like rider balance, rocking hips, an rapid acceleration in the knee at bottom of stroke. These are things which are unambigously bad. I'd put tense shoulders in that category. The other type is more dogmatic: KOPS, a certain knee angle, a saddle height of 102% trochanter length. These may be good or even excellent guidelines but they're not directly based on the desired result. I think it's safe to say, though, if a rider looks tense and stiff it's not good. Lennard Zinn in the video I posted earlier looks like he lives on the bike.


To me, Zinn still looks like he is bouncing around on the saddle, like if he just went down a couple more MM, that he would be in the sweet spot.

HUMP

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Man does Steve Hogg milk it to the full extent of the definition.

Lets see:

Cycle fit = $720 AUD plus any parts required.
Frame Fit = $420 AUD plus any parts required.
Final Fit = $300 AUD plus any parts required.
Video Fit = $250 AUD + $135 AUD for each additional*
*Typically 2 to 3 videos are necessary for video clients to be a happy.

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/cyc ... t-options/

Bend over and take it like a man! :unbelievable:

You can kinda say he lives high on the Hogg :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Location: South Carolina
stella-azzurra wrote:
Man does Steve Hogg milk it to the full extent of the definition.

Lets see:

Cycle fit = $720 AUD plus any parts required.
Frame Fit = $420 AUD plus any parts required.
Final Fit = $300 AUD plus any parts required.
Video Fit = $250 AUD + $135 AUD for each additional*
*Typically 2 to 3 videos are necessary for video clients to be a happy.

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/cyc ... t-options/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bend over and take it like a man! :unbelievable:

You can kinda say he lives high on the Hogg :lol:


He does not do the Video Fit anymore, so the cheapest option is out.

HUMP

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 3740
Location: Bay Area
People also need to remember is that sometimes bad fitters get shit right and good fitters get them wrong. A local fitter I once knew fitted a World Tour pro, who had his fit checked by 3 different team fitters. Nothing was ever changed. He got lucky.

Another rider I know flew to Australia to get a Hogg fit. Things turned out really wacky (1.5cm shim, 2cm lower saddle, claimed he needed a custom frame, etc.). Worst season he ever had and had a few hip and knee injuries flare up. He took some time off from racing, undid the changes and worked with a PT on the injuries and came back to claim a national track title and finish in the top 3 in masters nats in the TT.

Until we experience everything ourselves its hard to say who is and isn't good. 3D bike fit is a tool, but in the wrong hands it can do just as much damage as harm.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Unfortunately cycle fit changes with time and age. It can change from one season to the next.

Too many think that you pay for a cycle fit and it's done and done! Too bad that is not the case.

Put a on some pounds around the waist and there goes your comfort zone. I can guarantee it.
What was once a good fit it is no longer.

If you are good and maintain your flexibility and figure then bike fit remains constant over a longer period of time.
Maybe a small tweak here and there.

Get educated on how to properly fit on your bike. Everything you need to know is at you finger tips.
Try stuff out and see what works for you.

If the underwear keeps riding up the crack of your ass what do you do! :lol:

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I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:13 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
One thing I see a lot more than too much drop is too much reach. Drop to me has a pretty huge range just depending on how your shoulder blades retract when relaxed and also how you end up self selecting your position when on the rivet. Honestly, if I rode as much as pros did I would probably drop my bars another 20mm so my arms were much more locked out while riding tempo simply because it would save on upper arm strain over many hours in the saddle. Sure Gerard Vroomen doesn't think its super aero, but whatever, it'd be more comfortable.

Excessive reach also tends to thrust the shoulders forward a lot more. The way I think of it is track sprinters vs. Pozzato. His bars are so far away that he has to rotate them to some weird angle just so his wrists aren't in pain when he's gripping them. If you watch him race he also has a huge transition from seated to out of the saddle riding to get over the pedals. if you look at lots of track sprinters, or even someone like Cav, they use quite a bit less reach for their height and with their hands positioned more below their shoulders have more leverage during a sprint.

For years I had people telling me I ran too much drop so I raised my bars. I felt cramped and uncomfortable so these same fitters said to just increase my reach. Handling suffered and I had more upper back pain than ever. Even at 6 feet 2 I only use a 120mm stem, but my drop from saddle to the bars next to the stem is 12.5CM and I run classic bars so my drop to the grips is around 14cm and a lot more comfortable, better handling, and more stable. My shoulders and upper back are more relaxed and I can actually use leverage on my bars during a sprint.


Strange. I understand what you are saying, but drop affects reach too. The more drop you have, the longer your reach is in a given position. They go hand in hand, which is why riders tend to sit either lower and longer or high and short. I would think high and short would be suboptimal on a standard-geo. road bike, because, in most cases, the frame was not designed to be ridden that way, and a lower center of gravity usually results in better handling.


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:28 am 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
Unfortunately cycle fit changes with time and age.


This is part of the reason yoga is so important. Riding's an unnatural position, as is sitting at a desk: it's important to unwind, literally. Also, when getting older, I think muscles knot up more readily. This is why massage becomes more important. It's particularly an issue with me because I ride a lot with a backpack (when commuting).

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:08 am 
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Yoga may work for some. Above all physical work where the body stretches itself whether it's P90X work outs or just generally working around the house, gardening, cleaning, doing general exercise without weights will be fine.

Note to self: Do not ride with back pack when commuting! There are other ways to lug your stuff around.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:03 pm 
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[quote="Strange. I understand what you are saying, but drop affects reach too. The more drop you have, the longer your reach is in a given position. They go hand in hand, which is why riders tend to sit either lower and longer or high and short. I would think high and short would be suboptimal on a standard-geo. road bike, because, in most cases, the frame was not designed to be ridden that way, and a lower center of gravity usually results in better handling.[/quote]

Drop effects actual reach, but not the reach in a linear way from the bottom bracket. It affects how far you "Reach" to put your hands in the drops. I know we got onto Steve Hogg for a bit, but a lot of what he talks about is actually good common sense. He talks about having the minimal number of muscles recruited for stabilization. That makes perfect sense, in the fact that if you upper body is relaxed, due to not being in a position that requires recruitment of smaller stabilizer muscle of the abdomen and lower back, you are able to breathe more freely and in turn produce more efficient power. Note, I did not say more power, just more efficient power.

HUMP

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Where does arm length come in to the equation? I have a short torso for my height but my arms are crazy long. I can handle a silly drop of 15.5cm and will be going lower.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Maximilian wrote:
Where does arm length come in to the equation? I have a short torso for my height but my arms are crazy long. I can handle a silly drop of 15.5cm and will be going lower.



Arm length will allow you to go lower because of the previous post. You ability to "Reach" lower is there, but only if the rest of your functionality allows it. If you hamstrings are uber tight then you still will not be able to roll your hips to get into a super aero low position. 15.5cm would be consider a dramatic drop...A cliff so to speak.

HUMP

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:40 pm 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
Do not ride with back pack when commuting!


I'm working on that

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:40 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:02 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
stella-azzurra wrote:
Unfortunately cycle fit changes with time and age.


This is part of the reason yoga is so important. Riding's an unnatural position, as is sitting at a desk: it's important to unwind, literally. Also, when getting older, I think muscles knot up more readily. This is why massage becomes more important. It's particularly an issue with me because I ride a lot with a backpack (when commuting).


Yoga is not that important. Its an excuse for sedentary people to pretend that they're doing exercise so they feel better about being functionless human beings. I did it for a while and found that at first it was ok, but in the end no better than a simple set of static and dynamic stretches that I could do in my own home for half the time. Combined with studies that demonstrate that it actually does not improve functional flexibility and has a high potential for injury (see this article for examples: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magaz ... wanted=all) I don't see it being necessary or important for anyone, let alone cyclists.

I will say, however, that some of the more traditional asthanga or less extreme/more dynamic vinyasa classes are your best bet since they at least provide relaxation and combine static and dynamic stretching.

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