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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Having the seat height, seat setback, and cleat position in the right range is what matters. I've rarely seen someone literally kill power with their bars unless its really, really bad.

Some people are also more functional than others. Ryder's back looks shitty to me, but maybe riding with his arms locked out on the hoods relieves some kind of more painful/fatiguing strain he gets otherwise? Contador slides all over his saddle, but maybe he has some kind of flexibility limitation in his lower body that flares up under power and his saddle position is the best all around compromise he has found? Chavanel looks bunched up a lot and like he could use 1-2cm more reach and his seat looks really low, but again there could be some sort of limitation we don't know about.

Of all the pros the only one that seems to lose out with an extreme position is Andy Schleck since he clearly can't descend for shit or even ride his drops. Others don't ride their drops too much and might want their hoods lower, who knows, but for him its bad.

Some pros have really extreme positions and do just fine. Adam Hansen explains his position in the most recent ride and whatever we want to say about it- it works. He rode all 3 grand tours and countless leadout trains with it just fine. My guess is that things are in that general range and the rest are small details.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:21 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Image onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guys we should tell Fabian he is too low...

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:19 am 
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I like to think after 20 years of riding I have a reasonable idea of what looks ok on a bike...I see riders who have too much plantar flexion/extension or hyperextension and other issues etc. I feel pretty comfortable on the bike but when I get on the rollers/wind trainer in front of a mirror and start applying my own theories they just go out the window, because they're not comfortable...I can see I'm not in an efficient position but it just doesn't feel right...

So my point was that just because it feels right doesn't mean it is...and even the Pro's do this.

But if you're not comfortable in the most "efficient position" bio-mechanically then you may as well be in your most contented position for riding at your best...

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:27 am 
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To me Ryder's position looks fine but i ain't an expert. i think too many people believe a flat back is the perfect position for the back. think of the natural curve/s the the spine has then wonder why people get neck ache and soforth as referred pain from fatigued upper back extensor muscles. the upper back and it's muscles aren't going to be terribly comfortable after a few hours of extending the spine just so one can reach the bars that are too high and far away.
i think most people have bars too high to account for neck ache, but the tension generated in the upper back and scapula area increases the higher the bars go. the torso will know where it needs to be from hip flexion but is struggling to get there a lot of times because it's being held up by bars that are too high.
so after a while aches and pain sets in so people think they need higher brs again because they're aging, it's probably just an over use injury that can be rectified by massage, stretch and bring the bars down far enough to allow for natural curvature to take place in the spine which allows muscles to relax.
so maybe some people need to ride smaller frames and slam their stems provided that saddle position is correct and use massage and stretch to cure the old aches.
just my thoughts and opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:39 am 
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There's a lot of positive to what you say. Massage, yoga or other stretching, strength work in supporting muscles, and learning to relax are key. I like shrugging my shoulders, letting my head drop a bit, looking out of the top of my eyes instead of tilting my head upward, relax my face, and adapt the same mindset in cycling I have in a yoga pose.

But the bar position and the back position are two different things. The bar position is the one which allows you to be most comfortable with a given back position. If the shoulders are strained (rotated forward, for example), the elbows are extended, a lot of time is spend on the tops, then the bars are probably in in the wrong position to support a given back position. If you think as the back is fixed, then I'm going to place the bars where they're most comfortable, then the "slam that stem" approach seems silly. Maybe that is the best position, after all, but it isn't the goal.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:44 am 
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I don't think shoulders are always strained by rotating forward and it also doesn't create a rule that elbows will be locked in such a posture.
If shoulders are rotated forward this would lessen tension in the upper back and scapulaur muscle areas.
So when correct saddle position is found and reach is close i feel dropping the bars low enough to allow for a total lack of tension in the back and scapulaur muscle areas is found.
Think of tri athletes in there extremely low position. If that position were to cause neck pain every time riding surely that would alert them to change position or routine.


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:38 am 
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I think without diagrams as examples it's difficult to present what is actually intended...shoulders rotated forward can strain the Lat's (Latissimus Dorsi) or the QL's (Quadratus Lumborum) etc etc etc...origins and insertions of muscles are all areas of potential stress and tension...

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:17 pm 
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If shoulders are rotated forward it seems that puts a lot of strain on the trapezius.

Image

Here's a guy working his trapezius muscles:

Image

In tadasana, a focus is to keep shoulders relaxed: down and back:

Image

Here's what is supposed to be an exemplary position. There's always debate about what's exemplary, but his shoulders are relaxed, not strained:

Image

Here's a video of Lennard Zinn, at 3D Bike Fit: shoulders relaxed.

In contrast, here's Andy Schleck... his shoulders are as rolled forward as they could possibly be without injury:

Image

Here's Merckx: shoulders relaxed:

Image

Video of Lennard Zinn, taken from his session @ 3D Bike Fit: shoulders relaxed.

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 Post subject: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:15 am 
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@djconnel. Don't Contador and Wiggin's shoulders look rolled forward too? I see Contador has one hand across the top of the bar which could throw things off. Not that Pro positions are the end all of positioning and fit. I wonder of there are more photos of Wiggins shoulders from before and during last year's tour?


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Leonard Zinn- a great example of how a young, fit racer should look on the bike.

You never know what someone's upper back functionality is and how it influences their riding. I have botched up rotator cuffs that definitely influence where my bars have to be to pull my shoulders into alignment and even then its not perfect. With how much time these guys spend on the bike good posture might be an afterthought.

I'm critical of fit normally, but also know quite a few people that have some weird functionality issues that require some interesting solutions so its tough to judge unless you know the full story.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:30 pm 
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djconnel wrote:

In contrast, here's Andy Schleck... his shoulders are as rolled forward as they could possibly be without injury:

Image

Here's Merckx: shoulders relaxed:

Image



Andy and company are going uphill.
Merckx is going down hill or on a flat road.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Okay, fine:
Image

And here's Schleck descending (warning: disturbing content):
Image

And Contador climbing (shoulders slightly forward but don't look strained):
Image

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:32 pm 
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One comment on drop: 3D Bike Fit raised my bars, but rotated them, then rotated up the hoods slightly. This raises the tops, but the hoods end up fairly close to where they were before I previously had a slope on the ramps since I liked putting my hands there. Fitter encouraged me to grab the hoods. I used to grab the drops on the near corner of the ergo flat. With bars rotated and a bit higher I now grab them on the ergo flat. The end result is my position isn't that much different, but my "drop" is less. Drop is the measurement to the tops, but that's not where we typically ride. It's potentially misleading, and it encourages doing things like buying shallow drop bars which might not be optimal.

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:23 pm 
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In most of these pictures these pros are racing which would be different if they were training.
Also the bikes of the seventy's are set up differently than the bikes of the post 2005 lets say.
It's hard to make assumptions based on the rider, the situation, and terrain.

Andy descending is going to be a lot different than Nibali descending.

Image

Image

Andy is not a good descender, there tension in his body and it will be a lot more evident.

Andy riding uphill in training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if45QUTDang (gotten from the pro cycling thread)

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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:00 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Image
Forget the shoulders. Merckx appears to be riding awfully close to the wall.


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 Post subject: Re: An analysis of drop
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:00 pm 


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