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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:43 am 
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Right, I'll pick what a 9 year pro has to say about training over your ass any day Tapeworm.

As far as me being wrong I really do not mind that. I do mind when someone tells me that their way is the only way which is what Tapeworm always does when we breach "his domain". :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:52 am 
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Where did I say my way was "the only way"?

Or did I point out the ridiculousness of the statements:- "The trainer is for maintenance or warm ups" or "Trainer equals maintenance the road is for gains". Mainly because its complete crap and the best you can come up with the argument to prove what you say is an online interview about "Pro Training Secrets". Yeah :roll:

Got a question for you stella. What is the physiological difference of putting out 300 watts on a trainer for 2hr vs 300 watt out on the road for 2hrs, all other things being equal? C'mon, answer that one.

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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:52 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:09 am 
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First off, that interview with Ben Day is just one example that indoor cycling is more of a maintenance than true road training.
Forget the title of the article. It's no secret. Ben Day did not write the article he just answered the questions.
So it's a plain and simple fact that road cyclists make their gains on the road.

Three hundred watts is 300 watts whether it be on the road or the trainer.

But here is the rub.

Pro cyclists and anybody that wants to race, does not race on a trainer. They race on the road.
Therefore it's only logical that you train on the road to win or get better at cycling ON THE ROAD!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:25 am 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
First off, that interview with Ben Day is just one example that indoor cycling is more of a maintenance than true road training.


Anecdote. At best.

Quote:
Forget the title of the article. It's no secret. Ben Day did not write the article he just answered the questions.
So it's a plain and simple fact that road cyclists make their gains on the road.


I didn't realise we are only talking about pro cyclists. But, yes, even pros can, and some do, make gains indoors. All? Not a chance. But it can, and has, been done.

Quote:
Three hundred watts is 300 watts whether it be on the road or the trainer.


Precisely.

Quote:
But here is the rub.

Pro cyclists and anybody that wants to race, does not race on a trainer. They race on the road.
Therefore it's only logical that you train on the road to win or get better at cycling ON THE ROAD!


Oh, so we're talking racing now? Yes, I concur there, "virtual racing" is no substitute. But that wasn't the point of contention, was it?

Tell me, given the fact that 300 watts is 300 watts, what's the magical thing gain by being on the road vs the trainer when being out on the road is impractical or impossible? Because it can and has been done. Unless you're trying to tell me that there is an actual physiological reason why not?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:46 am 
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Why would that be an anecdote. Are you saying that Ben Day is lying?

For the average cyclist who is not pro they do believe they make gains on the trainer because it feels harder. They don't need to contend with all the other thousand variables on the road.

as we have established that watts are watts no matter where you make them.

But if you want to be a better road cyclist you do it on the road.

True gain is done on the road because of all the factors involved and ultimately you want to be good on the road not the trainer.

I'm beginning to think since you are "track biased" indoor is looked upon favorably.

Ask any pro cyclist this question and the answer will be the road every time.

To me pro cyclists are the bench mark and if you are serious about doing better on the road that's where you need to be. If you want to be good on the trainer then stick with the trainer.

For pro cyclists the trainer is maintenance tool. Therefore it is a maintenance tool for me.

This discussion rivals the previous discussion about what do you need to do to be a better climber.
The answer is HILL REPEATS Tapeworm.

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I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:21 am 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
Why would that be an anecdote. Are you saying that Ben Day is lying?


You're not very good with definitions...
"Ancedote - a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature."

The plural of which is not data.

Quote:
For the average cyclist who is not pro they do believe they make gains on the trainer because it feels harder.


No belief need. Measuring gains are easy. Powermeters do this rather well.

Quote:
They don't need to contend with all the other thousand variables on the road.


Like.... traffic? Angry magpies? Freds?

Quote:
True gain is done on the road because of all the factors involved and ultimately you want to be good on the road not the trainer.


Yeah road is great... but when its not an option, the trainer works rather well. Or are you saying it cannot improve performance. Is that what you are really saying Stella?

Quote:
I'm beginning to think since you are "track biased" indoor is looked upon favorably.


Every wondered why? Or are trackies not "real" pros Stella?

Quote:
Ask any pro cyclist this question and the answer will be the road every time.


Preference? Yeah road for sure. But the question is not preference. Its whether gains can be made on the trainer. Answer:- Yes, without question.

Quote:
To me pro cyclists are the bench mark and if you are serious about doing better on the road that's where you need to be. If you want to be good on the trainer then stick with the trainer.


Appeal to authority. Nice. The pros do it hence it must be the best and only way to do it. Pathetic.

Quote:
For pro cyclists the trainer is maintenance tool. Therefore it is a maintenance tool for me.


All the pros, huh? That is really hilarious. Any facts in your beliefs here, or just "doing what the pros do"?

Quote:
This discussion rivals the previous discussion about what do you need to do to be a better climber.
The answer is HILL REPEATS Tapeworm.


Strange, I would have thought it would be improving power output and the watt per kilo of body weight ratio would make you a better climber. But you go head and just climb.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:46 am 
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Tapeworm wrote:

You're not very good with definitions...
"Ancedote - a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature."

The plural of which is not data.


You forgot to cut and paste the rest of it
However, over time, modification in reuse may convert a particular anecdote to a fictional piece, one that is retold but is "too good to be true".

Quote:
No belief need. Measuring gains are easy. Powermeters do this rather well.


Most do not have powermeters. Gains are realized by beating your friends ON THE ROAD.

Quote:
Like.... traffic? Angry magpies? Freds?

No like temperature, weather, road conditions fortunately no magpies, or cow pies on this side of the globe.

Quote:
Yeah road is great... but when its not an option, the trainer works rather well. Or are you saying it cannot improve performance. Is that what you are really saying Stella? .


Yeah when it's not an option you go on the trainer but you train ON THE ROAD.

Quote:
Every wondered why? Or are trackies not "real" pros Stella?


We are taking about getting better ON THE ROAD. Trainers are a maintenance tool.

Quote:
Preference? Yeah road for sure. But the question is not preference. Its whether gains can be made on the trainer. Answer:- Yes, without question.


You can make gains on the trainer but ultimately true gains are made ON THE ROAD. IF you were out of shape and you got on the trainer you will get gains. But ultimately you want to make your gains on the road because that is where you make your true gain on becoming a ROAD cyclist.


Quote:
Appeal to authority. Nice. The pros do it hence it must be the best and only way to do it. Pathetic.


There is nothing to argue here. If pros did not think that was the best way they would not do it.
That is too logical to understand for you. Got it!

Quote:
All the pros, huh? That is really hilarious. Any facts in your beliefs here, or just "doing what the pros do"?


Any pro does their training on the road that's where it counts. Not on the trainer.

Quote:
Strange, I would have thought it would be improving power output and the watt per kilo of body weight ratio would make you a better climber. But you go head and just climb.


Where do you think improving power output and watts per kilo happens? by doing HILL REPEATS!

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I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:11 am 
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Haha, when you can't argue with fact respond with trolling, eh Stella?

Keep reading what the pros do in snippets in magazines and you'll be fine.

Quote:
Trainers are a maintenance tool.


Still blatantly false.

Quote:
Where do you think improving power output and watts per kilo happens? by doing HILL REPEATS!


No other way huh? :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:54 am 
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I use the trainer once winter starts and it's dark by 5pm so too sketchy to ride on the roads here in the dark, even with lights. How to stop getting bored? Cycling dvds, music videos. I can't concentrate on movies though. Oh it helps with power training for cyclocross big time

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:16 am 
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Well today there's a 20kph northeasterly wind making a -5C degrees wind factor breeze. I'm going to stay in and do 2 hours hard turbo training instead of my usual 3 hour hard outdoor ride. I don't expect to gain today, but I don't want to lose condition. I think 2 hours of hard steady indoor work should be roughly equivilant to 3 hours on the road.

I'm pretty confident road racing pros will not use a trainer any more than they have to but triathletes are known for it. I think that tells you that the indoor trainer is good for overall cycle fitness/strength and weight control but probably not much else. Track cyclists also do lots of work on a trainer. That's all about massive power over a relatively short period. Maybe a trainer helps with that.

I can't see how you can watch anything when on a trainer. All you can concentrate on is the pain. I think on a trainer it really is a case of no pan, no gain.


Last edited by konky on Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:38 pm 
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^if anything, one hour in bad-ass weather equals two indoor. if it was so simple cut 30% of your training just like that, many pros would stay home watching DVD's for 3 hours on a trainer instead of spending half a day on the road and more than half a year apart from their families

i get it, you don't like to get soaked, neither do i, but the idea of replacing riding in tough conditions with spinning in your living room seems just odd, doesn't it :noidea:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Haha, when you can't argue with fact respond with trolling, eh Stella?

Keep reading what the pros do in snippets in magazines and you'll be fine.

Still blatantly false.

No other way huh? :roll:


Troll yeah right. :laughat:

Right here is Mark Cavendish and company going out regardless.

Mark Cavendish (@MarkCavendish)
2/24/13, 3:22 AM
Snow or not... Our horses are ready for it! “@IljoKeisse: Sneeuw of niet... Ons paardjes zijn er klaar voor!
https://twitter.com/IljoKeisse/status/305587880410099712/photo/1

Image

This is for the race which might not go on (update they called it off)

but still pros train in this weather many times and so do your average cyclist. I also have posted that in really cold conditions pros have the luxury to go and train in warmer places. Still to train on the road because that's where it counts.

Christian VandeVelde rode on the trainer for months to overcome his injuries but as soon as he was well enough he trained all winter on the road in Chicago. The next year he trained in Hawaii with Hesjedal and that was even better.

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I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Got a question for you stella. What is the physiological difference of putting out 300 watts on a trainer for 2hr vs 300 watt out on the road for 2hrs, all other things being equal? C'mon, answer that one.


I have an answer for that one:
I can't hold 300 W for two hrs either place. But I could at least hit 300 W in an interval on the road.
I fall asleep, or at least start daydreaming, long before I hit 300 W on the trainer. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:59 pm 
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I know I didn't get to much of a 'Pro' level. In fact, I was (am) still rather rubbish.

But I know plenty who use trainers for more than 'maintenance' (myself and all the track riders - that seem to be disregarded - notwithstanding). This also includes guys who finished above me at our Nationals TT - beating Euro Pro's in the process.



Just my .02, for what it's worth.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Slightly offtopic, but this is how Boardman did it. :)
http://youtu.be/7pvKbr5KBkU?t=8m29s


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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:20 pm 


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